Author Topic: A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..  (Read 2114 times)

Offline Kweassa

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2006, 11:16:10 PM »
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You complain that Spits end up on the deck turning in circles and are easy prey for incoming higher alt LW. That is true, but it isn't because they are stupid. It's because the Spit cannot get a kill until the fight has devolved to near stall speed and that does not happen until the Spit has followed his intended target all the way to zero alt.


 That's just another way of saying "target fixation". It's a lack of basic discipline and cooperation, and nothing else.


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It is because HTC has chosen to model the stiffness of the Spit I controls at moderate speeds as meaning "virtually unmanouverable". If you dive on a 110 or 109 at alt he just does a flick reversal and your Spit is ballistic and cannot get a single shot. And with 0.303s there is no such thing as a snap shot. Only on the deck at stall speed can you finally load the required 200 rounds of 0.303 into your target. By then you are toast from other 110s or 109s. Fights using Spit Is take an enormous amount of time, and your target, especially 110s, can pretty much extend at will, even from a stall fight. As soon as they are beyond 300 to 400 yds the few 0.303s that do land will do no damage.


 Requiring a long time does not necessarily mean that you alone have to handle the entire time length by yourself.

 If it will require 5 minutes of constant fighting to finally bring a 109 to its knees, then you could be doing the first 2 minutes, the others chasing him down can do another 2 minutes, and the finally death blow can be dealt by others for 1 minute. High alt Spitfires push down high 109s, mid alt Spitfires engage them and make them run to deck, and low alt Hurricanes and Spits finally stall them out and deal the death blow.

 Ofcourse, sticking to that principle also means the guys at the high-alt and mid-alt ranges would have a lot less killing opportunites than the guys at down low. But hey, I personally feel that's better than being BnZd to death everytime I up a plane.


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Your argument that the LW side just has better players doesn't entirely hold water because the AvA arena group are quite conscientious at switching sides to even things up, so it turns out the same people end up playing both sides. Yet the LW has over a 2:1 kill ratio, even when flying 110s.


 We have players sitting at the ack guns shooting at Spits and Hurris at take off. How many of these guys does the LW have?


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But I am guilty of whining about something that will not change, which is one of the definitions of clinical insanity, so I'll stop. Sorry.


 What exactly were you whining about in the first place? That LW planes are overmodelled?

 Overmodelled 110s being the cause of disadvantage obviously makes no sense, since today the 110 squadrons left for other fronts of the war, and still against only 109s, the RAF were slapped around. So what would it be this time? The 109s being overmodelled? The Spits and Hurricanes being undermodelled?

 The Spits and Hurris have an absolute advantage over pitch control at all speed ranges. The 109 has a slightly better roll than the Spit at moderate and low speed ranges, and the Hurricane outrolls them both - but over 350mph the difference becomes meaningless. The great equalizer is the carburetor problem plaguing Spits and Hurris, which helps the 109 immensely in low-speed maneuvering, especially with sudden jinks.

 In other words, It ain't exactly a rose garden for the 109s either. When the 109 fully utilizes his plane, at best the odds are 50:50 against a Spitfire. The cannon advantage may shift the odds to 60:40 in favor of the 109s, and therefore that much of disadvantage we Spits and Hurris have, MUST be overcome with cooperation, which we are sorely lacking.

 
 Is there any way to fix this? Yes. I certainly think so.

 That's why I took the time to start this thread. I'm not bashing the RAF for no reason. I'm criticizing the RAF because I sincerely think we can do better and prove ourselves much more deadlier foes than we are now. What we need is a different mindset than what we used to have in the MA.

 Since obviously we can't get people to do military-grade squadron training to fight them in a game, IMO RAF pilots should just follow the simple set of rules as written below;


1. Divide the altitude ranges to three groups - 10k and above as High alt, 3k~10k as Mid alt, and 3k and under as Low alt.

2. After take off, and arriving at the scene, scan the area around and make a quick assessment to which alt range has least number of your planes in it. It is there you are needed - choose that altitude range as your own.

3. After choosing an altitude range, stick to it no matter what. Even if you think there's a great opportunity for a 1vs1 coming up, ignore the temptation. There's no such things as 1vs1 in BoB. Every fight will be a dizzy mess of many fighters buzzing around you. If the enemy runs below your operational alt, then let him go.

4. Cross over your altitude range only under following circumstances:

* when the enemy plane that dives to safety, tries to latch onto one of your own friendly plane at an alt range lower than yours - follow the 109 down, clear his tail, and go back up.

* when the enemy reinforcements, for some reason, is delayed, and your side obtains temporary total airsuperiority over the target.



 If most everyone sticks to these simple four rules, the air superiority will be contested, without shifting to the LW for such a long time. And as long as they don't have the liberty to gang up on our fighters on a whim, sooner or later, a kill opportunity will come to you.

Offline Grits

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2006, 12:23:53 AM »
At the moment the LW planes completely own the RAF because of the guns alone.

Offline 715

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2006, 12:40:05 AM »
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Originally posted by Kweassa

We have players sitting at the ack guns shooting at Spits and Hurris at take off. How many of these guys does the LW have?
 


Probably the same number. :)  That doesn't necessarily  indicate stupidity.  It's a fair way to practice high deflection shooting in the field ack.  It doesn't hurt the friendly plane (or yourself).  However, I don't do it anymore: when the manned ack tracers didn't show it was OK, but now that tracers show it can freak out the other player.

Offline skernsk

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2006, 01:22:41 AM »
Well some unfriendly banter is always welcome.

I have found the AvA arena quite fun the past couple set ups.  Even in this arena you have a few mouth pieces that won't shut up but that aside it's been fun.  Easy on calling the MA guys names, I'd rather have them there than not.

I flew both sides, Axis only for a couple sorties and I found the 303 Hurri was a decent ride.  I am still confused as to the guns, I know that the LW pilots must be getting sick of the 'tick-tick-tick-tick' as they fly away from a 2 or three second burst at 200 or less.  It gets real tough when you can't finish a kill and two more 109's are bearing down on you.

Why are the 8x303's so useless?  I've flown the Hurri I in fightertown and gotten kills easier.  I've also gone up against a group of Lancs and was shot down with very few hits.  Maybe it's rubber bullets or maybe its me.

Hell, maybe storch is right.  He's far superior than the rest of us and immune to 303's......or maybe he's a CHEATER!  Harr!  I knew it - it's all coming clear to me now.  Storch is cheating:aok

Offline Loddar

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2006, 02:47:14 AM »
... and you will all see, those people change sides when spit 5 comes
because the advantage is one the allies side. :mad:

Don't change Luftwaffe boys. I am looking forward to the same game
doing to you as you do in the moment with us.

:lol

Offline hogenbor

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2006, 03:09:45 AM »
I've seen people change sides all the times to balance numbers, I hope this wil continue, even when  the advantage switches to the allies (and it will).

Offline Kweassa

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2006, 04:46:41 AM »
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Why are the 8x303's so useless? I've flown the Hurri I in fightertown and gotten kills easier. I've also gone up against a group of Lancs and was shot down with very few hits. Maybe it's rubber bullets or maybe its me.


 There is one reason why the AP machine guns are generally less effective than HE cannons. This IMO, is the only real issue that has some relevance to the matter, and can be justified for complaint - which needs to be fixed on a game-wide scale (meaning, significant game upgrade).

To shoot a plane down in AH, you need to break off some external piece of the plane, notably the wings. However, real life planes were much more complicated than that. While the rear fuselage is mostly empty, the wings and frontal fuselage was packed with all kinds of machinery that might direcly effect the performance of the plane, the cables or rods for control surfaces being one of such examples.

 This difference is very evident when watching guncam films - contrary to what we see in AH, IMO 80~90% of guncam footages that remain today are of planes being shot down due to internal problems: fuming engine, local fire, pilot bailing out from an unctrollable plane, and etc etc.. Seeing the wings come off fighters is pretty much a rare thing in guncams.

 AH's DM is outdated. It was state-of-the-art six years ago, but not anymore. Compare the one contendor to AH in WW2 combat flight simulation gaming, IL-2/FB series. When playing IL-2/FB the DM is very detailed and different. Many things can happen in IL-2/FB and its expansion packs.

 Planes primarily armed with AP weapons have a much higher chance in dealing various damage to internal components of the plane. The most frequent form of damage dealt with these weapons, is engine damaged and fuming, fires, aileron/elevator controls cut of jammed. Sometimes the supercharger is damaged and engine performance is reduced, the throttle gates become damaged and plane cannot adjust throttle, Other times the bullets enter cockpit and hurt the pilot, whom in IL-2/FB has varying degree of wounds.

 When the pilot wound is serious the pilot cannot control his plane with maximum efficiency, and maneuvering is limited. Sometimes his vision is blurred by a haze of red, and usually, after some time he dies quickly. With lighter wounds the pilot may survive and be able to land his plane, but still the maneuvering efficiency drops off. Hardly surprising, since any type of would that is none critical, would usually involve damage to arms or legs.

 Even if the pilot himself is safe, sometimes damage to the cockpit knocks out his gunsight - in which case the damaged plane is potentially neutered as a threat.
 
 Contrary to AP armed planes, HE armed planes deal most of their damage by knocking entire surfaces out. Hits to the wing, while not enough to knock it off, have a good chance of drilling a hole large enough to cause loss of lift. The plane becomes twitchy and sensitive in the roll axis due to bad maneuvering. Hits to the rudder or ailerons may tatter it into rags, in which case the maneuvering efficiency is lost.

 ...

 Compared to how IL-2/FB deals damage, AH is very limited, and the problematic results are as seen with the current AvA setup. 30cal armed planes obviously cannot blow out wings or fuselages like cannon planes - but a good burst of 30cals at close range, even if does not deal structural damage, should have a good chance of dealing some kind of internal damage.

 Just today I saw TheBug's plane(I remember it to be a Hurri) firing at storch's 109E at what appeared to be less than 100 yards distance. He pulled his trigger down, and while hits from other person's FE does not show up in mine, the range was so close that it was possible for me to confirm Bug was landing a good deal of concentrated 30cal fire to the 109's rear fuselage and stabilizer section. However, the 109E didn't go down, nor was damaged - at least in a way I could visually confirm.

 What happend was Bug's plane ended up ramming storch's 109E from behind. He probably saw the collision first on his FE. It was a 2vs2 situation, and I was fighting another 109E in a SpitI as I saw this happen. Bug collided and got the worse of it, and storch's 109E turned around to what quickly became a 2vs1, and I was shot down.


 Now, that amount of 30cal firepower at such a close range, while not powerful enough to snap off a 109E tail end, still should have done something. It probably would have knocked off storch's elevator controls were it in real life... or for some miraculous reason, if his controls were not damaged, it still should have made rags out of his elevators and rudder, bad enough to have some kind of ill effect in maneuvering.

 But alas, since AH does not have such internal components modelled, storch's 109E survived... and healthy enough to join the chase and shoot me down.


 Now, if somebody had brought the fact that AH's lack of DM gives a bit of unfair advantage to cannon armed planes, on that I would have agreed.

Offline Shifty

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« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2006, 06:53:06 AM »
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Originally posted by Kweassa
There is one reason why the AP machine guns are generally less effective than HE cannons. This IMO, is the only real issue that has some relevance to the matter, and can be justified for complaint - which needs to be fixed on a game-wide scale (meaning, significant game upgrade).

To shoot a plane down in AH, you need to break off some external piece of the plane, notably the wings. However, real life planes were much more complicated than that. While the rear fuselage is mostly empty, the wings and frontal fuselage was packed with all kinds of machinery that might direcly effect the performance of the plane, the cables or rods for control surfaces being one of such examples.

 This difference is very evident when watching guncam films - contrary to what we see in AH, IMO 80~90% of guncam footages that remain today are of planes being shot down due to internal problems: fuming engine, local fire, pilot bailing out from an unctrollable plane, and etc etc.. Seeing the wings come off fighters is pretty much a rare thing in guncams.

 AH's DM is outdated. It was state-of-the-art six years ago, but not anymore. Compare the one contendor to AH in WW2 combat flight simulation gaming, IL-2/FB series. When playing IL-2/FB the DM is very detailed and different. Many things can happen in IL-2/FB and its expansion packs.

 Planes primarily armed with AP weapons have a much higher chance in dealing various damage to internal components of the plane. The most frequent form of damage dealt with these weapons, is engine damaged and fuming, fires, aileron/elevator controls cut of jammed. Sometimes the supercharger is damaged and engine performance is reduced, the throttle gates become damaged and plane cannot adjust throttle, Other times the bullets enter cockpit and hurt the pilot, whom in IL-2/FB has varying degree of wounds.

 When the pilot wound is serious the pilot cannot control his plane with maximum efficiency, and maneuvering is limited. Sometimes his vision is blurred by a haze of red, and usually, after some time he dies quickly. With lighter wounds the pilot may survive and be able to land his plane, but still the maneuvering efficiency drops off. Hardly surprising, since any type of would that is none critical, would usually involve damage to arms or legs.

 Even if the pilot himself is safe, sometimes damage to the cockpit knocks out his gunsight - in which case the damaged plane is potentially neutered as a threat.
 
 Contrary to AP armed planes, HE armed planes deal most of their damage by knocking entire surfaces out. Hits to the wing, while not enough to knock it off, have a good chance of drilling a hole large enough to cause loss of lift. The plane becomes twitchy and sensitive in the roll axis due to bad maneuvering. Hits to the rudder or ailerons may tatter it into rags, in which case the maneuvering efficiency is lost.

 ...

 Compared to how IL-2/FB deals damage, AH is very limited, and the problematic results are as seen with the current AvA setup. 30cal armed planes obviously cannot blow out wings or fuselages like cannon planes - but a good burst of 30cals at close range, even if does not deal structural damage, should have a good chance of dealing some kind of internal damage.

 Just today I saw TheBug's plane(I remember it to be a Hurri) firing at storch's 109E at what appeared to be less than 100 yards distance. He pulled his trigger down, and while hits from other person's FE does not show up in mine, the range was so close that it was possible for me to confirm Bug was landing a good deal of concentrated 30cal fire to the 109's rear fuselage and stabilizer section. However, the 109E didn't go down, nor was damaged - at least in a way I could visually confirm.

 What happend was Bug's plane ended up ramming storch's 109E from behind. He probably saw the collision first on his FE. It was a 2vs2 situation, and I was fighting another 109E in a SpitI as I saw this happen. Bug collided and got the worse of it, and storch's 109E turned around to what quickly became a 2vs1, and I was shot down.


 Now, that amount of 30cal firepower at such a close range, while not powerful enough to snap off a 109E tail end, still should have done something. It probably would have knocked off storch's elevator controls were it in real life... or for some miraculous reason, if his controls were not damaged, it still should have made rags out of his elevators and rudder, bad enough to have some kind of ill effect in maneuvering.

 But alas, since AH does not have such internal components modelled, storch's 109E survived... and healthy enough to join the chase and shoot me down.


 Now, if somebody had brought the fact that AH's lack of DM gives a bit of unfair advantage to cannon armed planes, on that I would have agreed.


Or you could say 303's suck.;)

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

storch

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2006, 06:59:07 AM »
You are correct in the DM assessment in AH.  it could be tuned up a bit.  If I were flying allied I'd fly the Hurribeast and I would concentrate my fire to the opposing players cockpit.  that pretty much cancel's out the weak DM in AH.  with regard to TheBug incident yes he was busy anklehumping but since he dove down into a cherry pick he was carrying lots of speed what I did was extend just a bit while keeping my plane below his nose as much as possible.  he registered few hits.  packet loss may have been a factor but at my end it seemed he was totally missing.  when he got under distance 200 (registering D0) I dove down slightly cut the throttle all the way back, rolled inverted and pulled up when it sounded like I had forced the overshoot.  he rear ended me. he drives like an old lady anyways.  when I looked in the rear view all I saw was some blue hair bobbing around and 8 knuckles death gripping the wheel.  he'll be hearing from allstate insurance this morning and possible the homeland security people as well since he's a illegal insect.  he will most likely be deported to the amazon rain forest where he belongs.  just as well, he's probably carrying the avian flu.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2006, 07:13:31 AM »
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Or you could say 303's suck.


 It's not the 30cals that suck.

 It's the DM that sucks, and those two are very different things. Implying the guns sucks, is misleading, and amounts to nothing but pointless overmodelled/undermodelled debates.

Offline Shifty

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« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2006, 07:48:49 AM »
I've never said anything is over modeled or under modeled. The fact is it's hard to get kills with 303's IN THIS SIM. All the long winded explainations on DM's, and pointing out how inferior the tactics, and flying abilities of the Allies is a crock. The simple fact is the 303's are weak. So why all the hot air? It's a fact. Gentlemen start your merlins and deal with it. If it gets frustrating log off go do something else for a while, log back on and try again.

The LW guys have a firepower advantage right now. The great thing about the RPS is the balance will shift a few times. This works out well. The LW should be running wild right now.

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2006, 08:18:17 AM »
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I've never said anything is over modeled or under modeled. The fact is it's hard to get kills with 303's IN THIS SIM. All the long winded explainations on DM's, and pointing out how inferior the tactics, and flying abilities of the Allies is a crock. The simple fact is the 303's are weak. So why all the hot air? It's a fact. Gentlemen start your merlins and deal with it. If it gets frustrating log off go do something else for a while, log back on and try again.


 Again, implying the gun is "weak", leads to a false conclusion that perhaps it might be 'undermodelled'. I, in turn, have never said that you were the one complaining about it.

 I simply said you are wrong, and are mixing up stuff that should not be mixed. Long explanations are required, precisely, to avoid the kind of mix-up you are showing... which unfortunately, doesn't seem to work on some people. You can teach a kid for days why "1+1 = 2", and at the final day, the kid still answers, " 1 + 1 = 11".

Offline 715

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2006, 10:17:12 AM »
I can't resist one last whine (sorry).

In frustration I tried the TBM for the first time last night.  I have NEVER flown it before, but I have a lot of experience in the Spit I, even in the MA.  Nevertheless, I now have a considerably better k/d in the TBM, used solely as a fighter, than I have in the Spit I.

That's just wrong.

Offline soda72

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« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2006, 12:09:41 PM »
I think people take this game way to seriously...

:D

Offline Shifty

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« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2006, 03:49:56 PM »
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Originally posted by soda72
I think people take this game way to seriously...

:D


Your right soda. So you guys in JG54 be a little  less serious about shooting me to peices every night.:D

Okay Kweassa. I do respect your wealth of knowledge, seriously. So I'll just end my point with.

I really don't like using the 303's.:aok

JG-11"Black Hearts"...nur die Stolzen, nur die Starken

"Haji may have blown my legs off but I'm still a stud"~ SPC Thomas Vandeventer Delta1/5 1st CAV