Author Topic: remember the 109 (Read 5163 times)

1K3 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 24, 2006, 04:43:12 PM »

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Originally posted by Iceman24
If they (109/190) are modelled correctly then I see why germany lost the war lol

Luftwaffe lost the air battle because of (in AH terms) gang-banging hordes of Pursuit Fighter Series and castle armored bombers.

Elite Staffels who flown 109s and 190s had no problem dealing with US planes except the NUMBERS and REINFORCEMENTS (back-ups).

AutoPilot · « **Reply #16 on:** January 24, 2006, 04:52:15 PM »

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I do not know if thats true or not, but it is being widely discussed

You are venturing into unknown territory.Things were way different in 1939,and there was a high level of Chivalry amongst the pilots.When you are a Fighter pilot anything that is of the enemy's country and is flying near you must be shot down.Don't believe everything you read,find 2 other books on Mr.Hartmann and see if they say the same thing before you base your findings on just 1 book.

Vad · « **Reply #17 on:** January 24, 2006, 04:55:18 PM »

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Originally posted by Iceman24

Which I DON'T believe was the case in real life, the US pilots were saying that the German AC were awesome, but somehow in our game they can only climb ??? and if you slow em down they turn into bricks ???

Because AH is not real war. AH players and real WW2 pilots have absolutely different goals.

We want to have furball, or increase our scores, or just have fun. WW2 pilots did their job.

For example, FW was really awesome plane for bomber interception. It was designed for this purpose, and in the reality of WW2 US pilots had little to set against 190. After radar warning FW's had enough time and climb rate to get into position of advantage, and wonderful speed in dive and weapons allowed them to attack bombers regardless of covering P51's or 38's. Obviously, US pilots considered 190's superior fighter because it was very difficult for them to protect bombers against FW's.

But in Eastern front where most of the fights were low alt furballs or escort of attackers like IL2's on 1000-2000 meters altitude FW wasn't considered as serious threat. It wasn't impressive at all.

To see how good or bad planes were in real life we have to look into type of the missions they were designed for and how they accomplished them.

Obviously, the best fighter in AH is that which was created for missions like we have in MA - mostly low alt furball on the low speeds. FWr wasn't intended for such type of fight.

AutoPilot · « **Reply #18 on:** January 24, 2006, 05:04:01 PM »

The FW's were also very successful at getting into England and dropping they're bombs, before the RAF could even up any aircraft the FW's were already on they're way back to France.The FW's made a very good ground at5tackplatform.

Kweassa · « **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2006, 05:24:04 PM »

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For example, FW was really awesome plane for bomber interception. It was designed for this purpose...

No it wasn't.

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... and in the reality of WW2 US pilots had little to set against 190. After radar warning FW's had enough time and climb rate to get into position of advantage, and wonderful speed in dive and weapons allowed them to attack bombers regardless of covering P51's or 38's. Obviously, US pilots considered 190's superior fighter because it was very difficult for them to protect bombers against FW's.

190s were considered as superior fighters way before they ever thought of using them as interceptor aircraft, fighting Spitfires over the Channel, renowned for "great maneuverability".

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But in Eastern front where most of the fights were low alt furballs or escort of attackers like IL2's on 1000-2000 meters altitude FW wasn't considered as serious threat. It wasn't impressive at all. To see how good or bad planes were in real life we have to look into type of the missions they were designed for and how they accomplished them.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what's wrong in a plane, nor does it take a history teacher. The Fw190s and 109s are plagued with inherent stability issues, while its most significant opponents are totally free of any maneuvering troubles.

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Obviously, the best fighter in AH is that which was created for missions like we have in MA - mostly low alt furball on the low speeds. FWr wasn't intended for such type of fight.

Neither was the P-51 or the P-47. And yet both dominate the Fw190 in a deck-alt fight where none of the three fighters were designed for. As a matter of fact the P-51 or P-47 dominates a lot of things in low-speed maneuvering.

The 190s, are pigs. Against any plane that outruns a 190, it has no chance at all. The 190 doesn't just 'have a large turning radius' - it refuses to turn at all. Nothing more to say of this.

Karnak · « **Reply #20 on:** January 24, 2006, 05:37:04 PM »

There are "issues" with the flight models of various aircraft. I could list a bunch of them, and they're not all German, but it seems kind of pointless. The Fw190s and Bf109s certainly seem to under perform in terms of handling and controlability at their performance edges. There are other aircraft that seem to have negative performance attributes too.

Some aircraft have "issues" that benefit them as well.

1K3 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2006, 05:51:23 PM »

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Originally posted by Vad

For example, FW was really awesome plane for bomber interception. It was designed for this purpose, and in the reality of WW2 US pilots had little to set against 190. After radar warning FW's had enough time and climb rate to get into position of advantage, and wonderful speed in dive and weapons allowed them to attack bombers regardless of covering P51's or 38's. Obviously, US pilots considered 190's superior fighter because it was very difficult for them to protect bombers against FW's.

But in Eastern front where most of the fights were low alt furballs or escort of attackers like IL2's on 1000-2000 meters altitude FW wasn't considered as serious threat. It wasn't impressive at all.

paragraph 1: Fw-190 was an AIR SUPERIORITY fighter. It was designed to counter spits in the channel front and they did well.

paragraph 2: 190 was fast in lo alt, they stayed superrior against the LaGGs, leand lease planes, and I-16s until the arrival of La-5

AutoPilot · « **Reply #22 on:** January 24, 2006, 06:05:58 PM »

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The 190 doesn't just 'have a large turning radius' - it refuses to turn at all. Nothing more to say of this.

I really don't have a problem turning at low alts maybe because i set my hardeck at 10-K.So no i don't have low alt turning problems because i don't get caught low in a 190.

Karnak · « **Reply #23 on:** January 24, 2006, 06:22:35 PM »

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Originally posted by AutoPilot
I really don't have a problem turning at low alts maybe because i set my hardeck at 10-K.So no i don't have low alt turning problems because i don't get caught low in a 190.

Probably don't fight very much either, do you?

AutoPilot · « **Reply #24 on:** January 24, 2006, 06:25:00 PM »

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Probably don't fight very much either, do you?

You don't even play this game any more,so why you tryin too get in where you don't fit in?

Your right about 1 thing,when i'm in my 190 it's not much of a fight for them at all,usually 2-3 moves and they are toast.

Urchin · « **Reply #25 on:** January 24, 2006, 06:59:13 PM »

Lol.

move 1 : find a plane fighting multiple friendlies
move 2 : cherrypick said plane
move 3 : gloat about you 1337 sk1llz on the BBS.

Sable · « **Reply #26 on:** January 24, 2006, 07:38:20 PM »

In regards to flap use by Mustang pilots:
"Kit" Carson of the 357th FG "If you're jumped, remember in the P-51 you've got (other than the Spitfire) the best defensive fighter in the business. Reef it in with full power and manoeuvring flaps ..."

Bob Welden of the 354th FG "... I finally got my sights on him from above by applying thirty degrees of flaps and full RPM."

Ed Heller of the 352nd FG "When I finally dumped flaps to decrease my turning radius ..."

Jim Starnes of the 339th FG "Since I was using maximum power and ten degrees of flaps to assist in my turn, I was easily outturning the FW-190 ahead of me."

Dick Asbury of the 363rd FG "I also lowered about twenty degrees of flaps. The use of flaps decreased the airplane's stalling speed and thus allowed greater maneuverability at lower speeds."

Bob Goebel of the 31st FG "Then I did something I didn't like to do: I put down 10 degrees of flaps. Putting the flaps down enabled me to turn tighter, but it reduced me speed."

"Bud" Anderson of the 357th FG "Instead of cobbing it like before and sailing on by him, I decide to turn hard left inside him, knowing that if I lose speed and don't make it I probably won't get home. I pull back on the throttle slightly, put down 10 degrees of flaps, and haul back on the stick just as hard as I can."

A lot of P-51 pilots used their flaps when needed. Some of these guys thought this was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and others preffered to just BnZ. The only information given in the P-51's pilot manual is airspeed limitations for flap useage. It doesn't give any flap G restrictions, and makes no mention of them in the prohibited maneuvers, accelerations limitations, or operating flight limits.

AH has it modeled correctly - they are there to use. The obvious drawback is that you have to slow down to do so which makes you vulnerable to attack.

Sable · « **Reply #27 on:** January 24, 2006, 07:39:47 PM »

Oh, and with regard to Yeager's opinion of the 190, his actual quote is: "The Focke-Wulf 190 was the only one in the same league with the Mustang." This being based on the captured German and Japanese aircraft he flew at Wright field. Another quote from Chuck: "Regarding the fighters themselves, I flew the P-47, P-38, Bf 109, Fw 190, Spitfire and several other lesser known types, and the P-51D was by far the best war machine"

Not quite "the 190 was superior to the pony in many ways, and that his pilots had to rely on superior skills and tactics when fighting them"

AutoPilot · « **Reply #28 on:** January 24, 2006, 07:55:29 PM »

Move:1-Vertical after merge

Move:2-Reverse onto target

Move:3-Shoot target from sky

Cherry picking is for BK's and dweebs,which one are you?

when they start furballing at 15-K again then maybe i will cherry pick.

You should really read the entire thread before speaking out of turn.

pluck · « **Reply #29 on:** January 24, 2006, 08:47:17 PM »

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Originally posted by AutoPilot
Move:1-Vertical after merge

Move:2-Reverse onto target

Move:3-Shoot target from sky

Cherry picking is for BK's and dweebs,which one are you?

when they start furballing at 15-K again then maybe i will cherry pick.

You should really read the entire thread before speaking out of turn.

well. first urchin is a very good pilot in any plane, and have seen some first class flying in the LW variety from him.......i had a great film of him once on the deck, out numbered, and winning.

not sure is a fair statement about the bk's...just the other night i ran into them at about 4-5k...they were in 190's.

so what is your fighing alt 10-20k. what are you attacking bombers, and heavy attack planes? just curious as to what makes you so good, maybe you could post a film so that we all might learn.