Hamas Wins Majority

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by weaselsan
The Palistinians (Even though Palistine never really existed)  

Would someone please explain this to me.
Myself personally I dont care one way or the other. Other then a point of curiosity. But...

My mother,my grandmother and all of my uncles on my mothers side. and my aunt on my fathers side all absolutely insist that when they went to school in geography (this is before the re creation of Isreal after WWII)they were taught that that area was Palistine.

Yet I keep hearing there never was a palistine.

If there never was. then how were they taught there was?

Like I said. doesnt really matter to me one way or the other cept as a point of curiousity.
Though in hindsight the recreation if Isreal in the location it currently is considering all the trouble its been was a huge mistake and everyone would have been better off if they were given Bermuda or someplace like that

[MrRiplEy[H]]

This will not end well.

Umm.. it did not start well or go well presently, what do you expect?

[storch]

what occurred in 1948 was that land was apportioned to both the new state of israel and a larger portion allocated to palestine.  the problem stems from the fact that there were no homogenous communities and arabs living in what then instantly became israel were uprooted from their homes.  the problem was further compounded when jordan seized the palestinian land as jordanian but did not want the palestinians.  the plan was to drive the jews into the sea with the numerically superior pan arab forces and give the israeli lands to the arabs but by now we should all know what happens when you try to anihilate God's chosen people.  there's a cautionary tale there somewhere for the euros they are just really slow on the uptake.

[FiLtH]

Im sick of it sick of it sick of it.

[storch]

Originally posted by FiLtH
Im sick of it sick of it sick of it.

what? no trip to jerusalem for easter?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by storch
what occurred in 1948 was that land was apportioned to both the new state of israel and a larger portion allocated to palestine.  the problem stems from the fact that there were no homogenous communities and arabs living in what then instantly became israel were uprooted from their homes.  the problem was further compounded when jordan seized the palestinian land as jordanian but did not want the palestinians.  the plan was to drive the jews into the sea with the numerically superior pan arab forces and give the israeli lands to the arabs but by now we should all know what happens when you try to anihilate God's chosen people.  there's a cautionary tale there somewhere for the euros they are just really slow on the uptake.

Actually (decided to look it up) From what Im reading so far. Palistine predates the events of 1948 by a very long time. And while it has been under the rule of various countries and empires over time. It seems to have been recognised as Palistine for considerably longer then the events of 1948.

Near as I can tell from what I have found so far.
Claims of "there never was a palistine" are untrue.
Also from what I have found so far. It would seem that the palistinians have a legitimate claim to the lands in that area.

Like I said before. I personally dont care one way or the other. And I am trying to look at it in an unbiast way for either side.

And Im sorry but I do not buy into "it was promised to us by God" as a legitimate claim to the land anymore then I buy into the Muslim idea that once an area has been ruled by Muslims it can never be allowed to be ruled by anything else.

Not that it matters. The area has been nothing but a huge toothache for quite some time now and will remain so for the forseeable future

[storch]

absolutely palestine was called palestine by the romans.  IIRC it was in the 1st century BC that pompey gerimandered the district to suit roman interests and put the whole amalgamation under Herod the Great.  it was called palaestinae at that time.  it was at that time the the whole arab/jew thing began also.

[Nashwan]

My mother,my grandmother and all of my uncles on my mothers side. and my aunt on my fathers side all absolutely insist that when they went to school in geography (this is before the re creation of Isreal after WWII)they were taught that that area was Palistine.

Yet I keep hearing there never was a palistine.

If there never was. then how were they taught there was?

As a child, I used to live in Aden (some time after it gained independence from British rule). Like most of the Arab world, they used to deny the existence of Israel. Maps and globes that had "Israel" on them were censored. I had a an inflatable globe with a black rectangle where Israel was.

The claim there never was a Palestine, or Palestinians, is the same thing in reverse. It's an attempt to rewrite history to control the future.

From the Balfour Declaration, 1917:

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people"

From a submission by the World Zionist Orginisation to the League of Nations calling for a Jewish homeland:

"Proposals to be presented to the Peace Conference.

The Zionist Organization respectfully submits the following draft resolutions for the consideration of the Peace Conference:

      1. The High Contracting Parties recognise the historic title of the Jewish people to Palestine and the right of the Jews to reconstitute in Palestine their National Home.
      2. The boundaries of Palestine shall be as declared in the Schedule annexed hereto.
      3. The sovereign possession of Palestine shall be vested in the League of Nations and the Government entrusted to Great Britain as Mandatory of the League. "

The first sentence of the first report of the Mandate power (Britain) to the League of Nations:

"When General Allenby's army swept over Palestine, in a campaign as brilliant and decisive as any recorded in history, it occupied a country exhausted by war."

Anybody who tries to claim there never was a Palestine is doing exactly what those censors did when they painted out Israel on maps. (with the exception that trying to claim something that did exist never did seems even more Orwellian to me)

[StarOfAfrica2]

Actually, I beleive the statements supporting the idea of Palestine being a fabrication got their roots in the fact that there was not a COUNTRY called Palestine before.  There was a geographic area designated "Palestine".  This label was more for the use of outsiders, to give the place a name, than for those who lived there.  There was never an attempt to have a recognized "Palestinian govt" as we know the movement until after Israel was created and the whole refugee problem came up.  I could be wrong, there may have been a recognized govt head at some point in that area, but I dont think so.  

We are not required to support terrorism. All Hamas need do to be recognised and welcomed into the global discourse is to renounce terrorism. That isn't difficult. Is it?

Ask Arafat.  The PLO did it.  Arafat was one of the worst of the terrorists, and yet his Fatah party is at the forefront of the current peace movement with Israel.  So yes, its quite possible Hamas could do the same "about face" if they think they can gain by it.  Why wouldnt they?  Their leaders may be extremists but they arent stupid.  The leaders arent the ones strapping on explosives.  They just give the orders.  Nice distinction, I know.

Dude....don't smoke it all, I may get a chance to get over there someday.

What I smoke or dont smoke is irrellevant to the discussion at hand.  And there's plenty for you anytime.  

Smoke may hide the truth sometimes, but not in this case.  I just said thats the platform Hamas runs under.  I didnt say anything about the validity of it, one way or the other.  It has yet to be borne out on a large scale.  But in the places where they already held political power, they have cleaned up govt. and reduced costs of operating, and made things better for the people who live there.  Basically, they kept their promises.  And as a result, they won a huge victory in the big elections.  They didnt get that much support from their radical wing.

*Edit*
I think if you look, you'll find many similarities between Hamas and Sinn Fein / IRA.  Both have an established radical (terrorist) wing, and a political wing that is very popular with the people.  Eventually the two can reconcile for peace, even if it's uneasy.

[Maverick]

I would say it is quite true that arafat did renounce terrorism. It happenend about the same time he stopped breathing......

[StarOfAfrica2]

This was a very interesting article.  It came out in December just before Christmas.  Hamas was already beginning to work with the Palestinian Authority then, by invitation, and they predicted a possible large win for Hamas in January.  Why was it such a surprise then?

Odd Allies
Bethlehem Mayor
Courts Hamas,
Stirring Up Region

A Christian Fights Corruption,
But Attracts Criticism;
Politicizing a Holy City
U.S. Consulate Takes a Pass
By KARBY LEGGETT
December 23, 2005; Page A1

BETHLEHEM -- As Christmas approaches, a garland of white lights illuminates Star Street, the famous pathway to Manger Square in this city believed to be the birthplace of Jesus. But to organize this year's annual tourist spectacle, the city's Christian mayor relied on some unlikely helpers: leaders of the militant Islamic group Hamas, who are key members of his government.

The collaborative municipal effort captures the unusual position that mayor Victor Batarseh finds himself in these days. Elected in May, he is the top public official in one of the holiest cities in the Christian religion. Yet he runs Bethlehem through a coalition dominated by Hamas, a group blacklisted by the U.S. and Europe as a terrorist organization.

"It's time we open our hearts and minds to Hamas," says the 71-year-old mayor.

 
Mr. Batarseh's embrace of Hamas helps explain a puzzle in Palestinian society: how an organization that prides itself on terrorizing Israeli civilians -- often by encouraging Palestinian youths to blow themselves up -- has become so popular and powerful.

Born in the 1980s, Hamas has made its name by emphasizing Islamic religious piety and resistance to Israel's military occupation, often via terror attacks directed at Israeli citizens. For many Palestinians, however, the group's appeal lies with its reputation for battling endemic government corruption and providing effective, low-cost public services from education to medical care.

Now, in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza, the group is testing the breadth of that support. Under the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, Hamas had very limited political power. But Mahmoud Abbas, Mr. Arafat's elected successor, has invited Hamas to participate in all levels of politics, including the Palestinian Authority, the quasigovernment he oversees.

The decision is the centerpiece of a colossal bet that he can defang Hamas by enfolding it into the political process. Ultimately, Mr. Abbas hopes he can moderate the group by merging its military wing into the official Palestinian security forces -- an idea that's in sync with Mr. Abbas's mantra of "one gun, one law."

So far this year, local elections have been held in more than 250 cities and villages. Hamas candidates have won about a quarter of these races, emerging victorious in major cities such as Nablus, Jenin and Qalqilya. The group has also done well in Gaza, its traditional stronghold. In many cases, Hamas is defeating candidates from Mr. Abbas's own secular Fatah Party, which has long dominated local politics. Hamas is now gearing up for a major push in Palestinian legislative elections scheduled for late next month that could prove a sharp blow to Fatah.

The U.S. is a major backer of Mr. Abbas and his push for Palestinian democracy. But it continues to insist, along with the Israelis, that Hamas lay down its arms before joining into politics.

The complex new alliances stand to have a profound effect on the region. They could prompt Israel to sever ties with the Palestinian Authority, damping hopes for a negotiated settlement. A Hamas victory in January might also endanger a U.S.-backed plan to provide as much as $9 billion in aid and investment to the Palestinians.

Mr. Batarseh ran into problems with the U.S. shortly after taking office when he invited a group of foreign diplomats to come to Bethlehem to meet the new city government. His goal, he says, was to reassure them that Bethlehem would retain its Christian character, and to seek financial help with infrastructure projects. A $3 million solid-waste project was at the top of his list.

The U.S. turned down his invitation. A spokeswoman for the U.S. Consulate in Jerusalem says it has no official contact with Mr. Batarseh, citing his political affiliations. Says Mr. Batarseh: "Soon every Palestinian city will have members of Hamas in their government, so I guess the U.S. will boycott all of us."

Set in the hills of the West Bank about a mile outside Jerusalem, Bethlehem has a population of 30,000 and was once a majority Christian city. In the early 1990s, the demographic balance tipped in favor of Muslims. Today, the city has some 10 churches and about 15 mosques. Residents mainly toil in a tourism-based economy, although many wealthy Christians have moved away in recent years as the number of visitors dwindled.

Mr. Batarseh, short with thinning white hair, was born and raised here. He attended medical school in Cairo and later did a stint as a medical officer in the Jordanian military. Like many Palestinians, Mr. Batarseh felt the tug of politics from a young age. After Israel gained control over the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, he joined a radical faction known as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestinian, PFLP, which was dedicated to fighting Israel.

By the mid-1990s, the peace process with Israel was in full swing. Christian pilgrims poured into Bethlehem. Tourism revenues exploded. Beneath the surface, though, tension brewed. Much of the anger was directed at widespread corruption in the government, which was run by appointees of Mr. Arafat. A corruption scandal over the mishandling of the construction of a new bus station crystallized frustrations.

When peace talks broke down in 2000, Bethlehem erupted into often violent chaos. Some members of Mr. Arafat's security forces joined the fighting under a group known as the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. As they battled Israel, many Brigade members also began demanding protection money from shop owners, local merchants say.

Opening the Door

The turning point came in April 2002. A group of armed militants -- the vast majority affiliated with Mr. Arafat's Fatah party -- took refuge in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity as they fled Israeli forces. A standoff, televised live around the world, ensued for more than a month. It was resolved when militants were transported out of Bethlehem to Gaza and overseas.

While their departure was a relief to many residents, it also opened the door wider to Hamas. The group expanded a medical clinic and strengthened its presence in a workers union. At the Salah El Din mosque, Hamas activists redoubled efforts to raise money for a day-care center and orphanage that catered to children whose parents had been injured or killed by Israel's military. Eventually, it expanded coverage to include 1,600 children -- Muslim and Christian. Each child was given a monthly stipend and free meat on holidays.

With Mr. Arafat's death late last year, Bethlehem announced it would hold elections along with many other Palestinian cities. Mr. Batarseh decided to run for a seat on the city council, his first attempt at public office. His goal was to unseat members of Fatah, who had been running the city for nearly a decade.

Historically, Bethlehem's mayor has always been a Christian; eight of the 15 municipal council seats are also reserved for Christians. Mr. Batarseh, a practicing Catholic, won the popular vote. But in order to become mayor -- a post determined by vote among city council members -- he had to choose between allies: Christian members of Mr. Abbas's Fatah party or Islamists aligned with Hamas and a smaller militant faction known as Islamic Jihad, which has also carried out numerous terror attacks.

Weary of years of poor government, graft, nepotism and favoritism under the Fatah-run local government, Mr. Batarseh says he went with Hamas "because they aren't corrupt and because they are efficient." (Fatah officials acknowledge problems with corruption in the past and say the recent elections are aimed at promoting a new generation of leaders.)

Mr. Batarseh struck a deal with the group: The two sides would run independent campaigns but focus on a single theme: clean, transparent, non-corrupt government. As part of the pact, they put religious issues to the side. After the final ballots were counted in late May, Hamas and two other, smaller factions tapped Mr. Batarseh for the mayor's slot.

Settling into their new offices on Manger Square, Mr. Batarseh and his four Hamas city council colleagues -- including Hassan El-Masalmeh -- followed up on their promises with a torrent of change. They barred officials from using government cars for private business -- a common practice under the previous government. They cracked down on unauthorized merchants selling goods in the city and installed a new approvals process in the city's procurement office to reduce waste and ensure contracts went to the lowest bidder. They also removed seven people from the government's payroll who did no work.

 
Such results have helped Hamas win support even among some residents who don't share its vision of a conservative Islamic state.

But its formal involvement in local government has also stirred controversies large and small, especially among Christian and secular Muslim residents who've grappled with the rising influence of Islamists in the city for nearly a decade. In recent years, some Christian shop owners say they have felt pressure during the holy month of Ramadan to stop serving food during daylight hours, when religious Muslim are required to fast. Many establishments comply. Meanwhile, the Palestinian Authority has been late with its monthly budget payments to the city, saying that it is cash-strapped.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Cont.

[QUOTE"The mayor has turned Bethlehem into a political issue," says Nicola Canawati, a prominent Christian businessman and former city councilman. "And that is going to ruin our city." Adds Hanna Nasser, the city's former Christian mayor: "Bethlehem has become a symbol of the main issue we face in the region -- the spread of Islamic fundamentalism."

At city hall, the secular atmosphere of the previous government shifted toward a more conservative Islamic one. Once accustomed to shaking hands with all members of the government, Christian female employees found themselves rebuffed by Hamas councilmen, who told them such physical contact violates Islamic principles.

Tensions also grew between Mr. Batarseh and his Hamas colleagues. As part of their crackdown on corruption, Hamas members have sought to examine financial records of the previous government, including its former Christian mayor. Mr. Batarseh has resisted a public airing, fearing it could fuel religious tensions.

Potentially bigger problems loom. Under Hamas's manifesto, formulated in the 1980s, all non-Muslims living in the Palestinian territories would be required to pay a special tax, known as al-Jeziyah. Muslims are exempted. "We in Hamas intend to implement this tax someday," says Mr. El-Masalmeh, the Hamas councilman. "We say it openly -- we welcome everyone to Palestine but only if they agree to live under our rules." Mr. Batarseh opposes the tax and says it will never be implemented.

Common Ground

For now, the two men have agreed not to discuss such matters. Instead, they focus their attention on management of daily life in Bethlehem. In recent weeks, they have been cooperating in raising funds for Christmas celebrations in the city and marshaling municipal workers to prepare for an influx of visitors during the holiday season. They also continue to find common ground in their staunch opposition to Fatah.

Even so, painful uncertainties remain. Mr. Batarseh, for instance, says he opposes suicide bombings, but hasn't raised the issue with his Hamas colleagues for fear of antagonizing them. He also says he would be willing to support a territorial compromise with Israel if that would lead to the creation of a truly viable Palestinian state. The most important mission of all, he says, is improving the lives of Palestinians.

Mr. El-Masalmeh takes a different view. Though he, too, wants to improve daily life in Bethlehem, he says suicide bombings are a legitimate form a self-defense that will continue until all of historical Palestine, including what is now Israel, is under Palestinian control. That militancy is reflected in a message written on a wall deep inside a neighborhood of Bethlehem known for its allegiance to Hamas. Spray-painted in black, it reads: "We Salute Our Symbolic Leader Osama Bin Laden."

For Mr. Batarseh, such messages reinforce the need to bring Hamas into the democratic fold and put its most virulent positions to a test at the ballot box. "The only way to make Hamas more moderate is to bring them inside the system," says Mr. Batarseh, echoing Mr. Abbas's belief. "Cornering Hamas will only make them more extreme."

[/QUOTE]

[Sandman]

Originally posted by midnight Target
So are we pro democracy or not? We've already said we wouldn't recognize a Hamas govt.  Kinda hypocritical ain't it?

Back off man... Bush says that Democracy is the cure for terrorism. That's why we're in Iraq. Stay the course!

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Sandman
Back off man... Bush says that Democracy is the cure for terrorism. That's why we're in Iraq. Stay the course!

I guess that is why there is still the dumb-a-crat party .. some/many still live in such a simple minded world..rather than facing reality with its complex issues

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Eagler
I guess that is why there is still the dumb-a-crat party .. some/many still live in such a simple minded world..rather than facing reality with its complex issues

Ahem... the idiot-in-chief is the one stating that democracy and freedom are the cure for terrorism, not the democrats.

...this just in.