The real bottom line is that no matter what there are no "facts" for either arguments. All there is are opinions, either pro or con, each has good reasons and each believes they are right, so the bottom line is this argument/discussion cannot and will not ever be "won" by either side, all You can do is express Your opinions. However as long as people DO express their opinions one way or the other there will always be change...see what Im saying you may not win an argument but you can get a change. and with that change there will be as much bickering and opinions as before the change, thus is the cycle.. I know thats off topic but its good to think about when you cant figure out why some "idiot" doesent see that he is "wrong".