Soldiers denied equipment

[mauser]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060119-112132-3551r.htm

Sniper rounds
    An Army judge advocate general (JAG) temporarily banned Army and Marine Corps snipers from using a highly accurate open-tip bullet.

The JAG, we are told, mistakenly thought the open-tip round was the same as hollow-point ammunition, which is banned. The original open-tip was known as Sierra MatchKing and broke all records for accuracy in the past 30 years.
    The difference between the open-tip and the hollow point is that the open tip is a design feature that improves accuracy while the hollow point is designed for increasing damage when it hits a target.
    About 10 days ago, the Army JAG in Iraq ordered all snipers to stop using the open-tip 175-grain M118LR bullet, claiming, falsely, it was prohibited. Instead of the open-tip, snipers were forced to take M-60 machine gun rounds out of belts and use them instead.
    The order upset quite a few people here and in Iraq who said the JAG ignored the basic principle of every military lawyer that there is a presumption of legality for all issued weapons or ammunition that are made at the military service level at the time they are acquired.
    "She forced snipers to use less accurate ammunition, thereby placing U.S. forces and Iraqi civilians at greater risk," a Pentagon official said of the JAG, who was not identified by name. "And she incorrectly issued an order. JAGs may advise a commander, but they cannot issue orders."
    After Army lawyers were finally alerted to the JAG's action, the order was lifted and the JAG was notified that the open tip was perfectly legal for use by snipers. However, the reversal was followed by the Army officials' taking retaliation against a sniper who blew the whistle on the bogus order. The sniper lost his job over a security infraction in reporting the JAG.

Although I don't trust everything coming from the media anymore, I was fortunate enough to watch the very beginning of this incident unfold at another forum I frequent.  The soldier was seeking correct information from the credentialed experts on the forum.  The thread has been deleted since then, and I don't remember whether the soldier in question mentioned his unit or not (which was supposedly the infraction).  However, I did remember just how displeased the members were over the situation with the JAG.  Several of the forum members with credentials (one terminal ballistics expert who does testing for federal and law enforcement agencies provided the text of the letter which authorizes the particular ammunition, and several highly respected veterans) went out of their way to right the wrong.  They had some pretty choice words for the JAG, and in this case rightfully so.  Being forced to de-link ball rounds from the MG belts to use in their sniper weapon systems was a cardinal sin (a view that also seems from my layman's point of view, rightfully so).  Some open tip match rounds, including the subject 7.62mm M118LR and the recently issued Mk262 Mod 0/1 5.56mm are widely known to be landwarfare legal since the open tips are a byproduct of the manufacturing process and not specifically designed to make the bullet expand:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000248

I didn't hear about this incident on the evening news, unlike the body armor subject.  Anyone else pick this up elsewhere?  Possibly because it wasn't as widespread and only took a couple of weeks to resolve.  Or possibly because most reporters / editors couldn't figure out what was going on.  In any case, the problem seems to have been solved in the right way.

[DREDIOCK]

I dont see the point in banning either round.
the idea after all is to kill your target.
So long as that is done who cares  how much damage is done to the corpse?

I hope that JAG has been pulled out of Iraq and is curently serving as a PLO (no time for Seargants) somehere in the bowels of the pentagon.

Probably the same buttwhipe that advised not killing Bin Laden when we had the chance

[Meatwad]

Who chares of the ammo is illegal, all that matters is killing the enemy before he kills you

[Staga]

Why not use "dum-dums"; after all the goal is to take the bad guy out?

[Airscrew]

Isn't an Open-Tip the same as a Ballistic tip round.   Seirra used to make (and may still make) a Ballistic Tip boatail round that was supposed to be more accurate than a regular FMJ or ball round.   It had a hard plastic tip that prevented from getting disformed during loading.

Hollow points may be on the Geneva Conventions list of banned weapons, not sure.

I always heard that a really wicked round was a hollowed out bullet with a couple of drops of mercury inside and then resealed.

[lasersailor184]

A hard plastic tip that prevents it from getting deformed during loading?

Hey, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you...

[Airscrew]

Laser,  let me show you,  Plastic = polycarbonate,  IMO

http://www.wholesalehunter.com/product/nosler/nosldes/NoslerBallisticTipVarmintBullets.htm

The unique, ultra-thin tapered varmint jacket and pure lead core make the Nosler Ballistic Tip Varmint bullets ultra explosive, yet allow them to be shot at virtually any velocity level. Featuring Nosler's Solid Base boat tail design and streamlined polycarbonate  tip , these flat shooting, wind-defying bullets provide the absolute accuracy and long range efficiency that make Ballistic Tip the most wanted varmint bullet in America.  Nosler Ballistic Tip Varmint bullets are also available in .22 caliber 40, 50, 55 grain; 6mm 70 grain and .25 caliber 85 grain configurations.


Keep your bridge;)

[Gh0stFT]

Originally posted by mauser
...hollow-point ammunition, which is banned.

i wonder why the ban? like other here said, its about killing before the enemy kills you.
I may understand of banning mines but here i dont see the point,
especialy if the enemy uses hollow-point ammunition too.

[tce2506]

OK, Ballistic tips do NOT prevent the tip from getting deformed. (want that bridge back?) hmm, metal vs polycarbonate? metal wins. The plastic tip is to help the bullet expand, hence the "explosive" effect.

Hollow points are not used because the idea is not to kill one person, but wound one person. If you wound one, it takes two to carry him of the battlefield. If you kill him, the two leave him lay and shoot back.  Geneva convention has it's good points and not so good points as well.

[Airscrew]

TCE,  25 years ago I bought my first box of 165 grn ballistic tip boattails for my .300 Win Mag.   Selling points they used when I purchased them was the hard plastic tip prevents deformation when loading and unloading a round in the chamber or magazine and they had a better ballisitic coeffiecent than FMJ or soft points.    That was good enough for me.  I went to the range and shot a group of 3 at 100 yds you could cover with a quarter (bench rest).  

so no I dont want that bridge back,

[lasersailor184]

Polycarbonate isn't the same as plastic.  But anyway, that tip helps to expand the bullet upon contact.

[Airscrew]

Lasor, no arguement from me on the reason for the PLASTIC (polycarbonate) tip
But

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:Polycarbonate

God I love Google

Definitions of Polycarbonate on the Web:


A type of plastic used in sign faces, noted for its heat-resistance andimpact strength

Engineering plastic used for the shell and substrate of Sony magneto optical disks

A hybrid word meaning "many in composition with carbon atoms." Polycarbonate resins feature many chains of molecules linked to one another, forming a hard thermoplastic with a great resistance to impact and softening. Polycarbonate has been reported to be 50 times stronger than acrylic.

Rigid plastic that is easy to handle and can be cut to size. It is less susceptible to breakage than glass products. Scratches very easily but can be supplied with mar resistant coating.

Plastic that is very impact-resistant, and is thus sometimes used for spectacle lenses and frames.

Polycarbonates are a particular group of thermoplastic. They are easily worked, mold, and thermoformed; as such, these plastics are very widely used in modern manufacturing. They are called polycarbonates because they are polymers having monomers groups linked together by carbonate groups (-O-CO-O-) in a long molecular chain

 I love to argue,  my wife says I would argue with God

I worked dental in the Air Force for 20 years,  we used polycarbonate crowns with some patients,  we all used to call them plastic crowns

[tce2506]

LOL, airscrew. very nice shooting and research!:aok   I didn't realize ballistic tips had been around that long, I was thinking early to mid 90's. I tried them in my 25-06, but prefer the TNT bullets for "explosive " effects in that caliber.

[fartwinkle]

JAG = lawyer nuff said:furious

I say let the jag's grab some M24s or marine M40a2's and let them face off with the haji's.

[tce2506]

Harm would.