Author Topic: Maybe the 190s arent wrong....or how to be really unpopular in 1 step (Read 12882 times)

Crumpp · « **Reply #285 on:** February 05, 2006, 06:53:18 PM »

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The RAE flew a 190 straight from ops. I'd relly like to know how much flighttime they had with i.e. Faber's aircraft before the engine failed.

relly is spelled “really”. Flighttime is two words…Flight Time.

They did not have a usable quantity of C3 for flight testing and had to use 100/130 grade. Hence the bench test report above AFTER the conduct of the tactical trials.

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You have explained before that Faber's aircraft was derated. Ok. Not unique since it was a squadron service aircraft. So derated because of engine issues - on the line.

All BMW801's are de-rated when new for the first 10 hours of operational use. This is called a "break in period."

Some BMW801D2's before June 1942 were locally "derated". Geschwaders operated both "normal" and de-rated engines side by side and the reporting of "de-rated" motors drops off the Beanstandungen's after June 1942.

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Bear in mind that in the WW2 Nazy Gemany, the environment for true reports is not always friendly, and up to leathal to the announcer. I keep wondering how many are total belivers in reports created in an environment where the wrong numbers could send you to the "rot front".

Leathal should read “lethal”. Belivers is what? A small liver or do you mean “believers”.

As opposed to total believers in reports created in an environment where the wrong numbers could cause you to starve to death? Or destroy your family economically?

I don't think that is a very valid concern and implies that all Germans were lying.

If anything deceit would be much more dangerous than the truth.

It was a totalitarian government but a free market economy. The flaky reports are those dealing with race, religion, and Nazi party beliefs. Science, especially the more mundane aeronautics is hardly suspect.

All the best,

Crumpp

Crumpp · « **Reply #286 on:** February 05, 2006, 06:57:01 PM »

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There is no need to argue against speculations.

It's easy Gripen just use facts.

That is what I do.

All the best,

Crumpp

tikky · « **Reply #287 on:** February 05, 2006, 07:26:05 PM »

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Originally posted by Angus

3. Bear in mind that in the WW2 Nazy Gemany, the environment for true reports is not always friendly, and up to leathal to the announcer. I keep wondering how many are total belivers in reports created in an environment where the wrong numbers could send you to the "rot front".
(Same goes with the USSR).

Think about it will you....

umm Wily Messerchmitt should have been sent to teh Rot Front for designing that Me-210 lol. Lucky for him the Nazis kept him and gave him chance to improve tha 210 tio 410.

As for USSR... USSR's MiG beauro was not even given a chance to make new planes after the MiG-3 fiasco. their plans for a radial powered MiG was forced to pass it to LaGG beauro,

Angus · « **Reply #288 on:** February 05, 2006, 07:39:10 PM »

FYI, A high caliber person like Adolf Galland was already confined with the subtle suggestion of taking poison. He spoke too clearly.
Willy Messerschmidt had a close shave with the "politicians" He was favoured by some, and some not.
Hugo Junkers got confined and humiliated, and died under Nazy control.
Werner Mölders was already having his horns against the "system". He quit wearing his iron cross.
To Galland again, - he actually ripped his decorations off at a time and flung them on the table. Göring's table I belive.

An Allied parallell would be interesting.

gripen · « **Reply #289 on:** February 06, 2006, 01:57:53 AM »

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Originally posted by Crumpp
It's easy Gripen just use facts.

That is what I do.

Well, anyone can read from above what you use for RAE tests.

gripen

justin_g · « **Reply #290 on:** February 06, 2006, 04:11:16 AM »

The idea that aero engineers and/or test pilots lie or tweak numbers for political reasons is pure bunk, imo - even in soviet russia.

Say FW lies and says the 190 is a super-plane - i think the LW + RLM might complain when the aircraft don't live up to their claims, hmm?

In Soviet Russia, the engineers + factories faced serious trouble if the a/c produced weren't up to scratch, so it would make much more sense to deliberately under-rate your designs so the production models can live up to the prototype numbers...

Angus · « **Reply #291 on:** February 06, 2006, 04:39:58 AM »

You're right there, me bad

It rather applies to other cirkumstances. Well, there was a lot of hype, hush and push in the 3rd reich.

gripen · « **Reply #292 on:** February 06, 2006, 04:43:19 AM »

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Originally posted by justin_g

Say FW lies and says the 190 is a super-plane - i think the LW + RLM might complain when the aircraft don't live up to their claims, hmm?

Well, there is evidence on that.

gripen

BlauK · « **Reply #293 on:** February 06, 2006, 07:11:13 AM »

gripen,
Why is the top of that document missing? What is its title?
Are these design specs or measurements or what?

Crumpp · « **Reply #294 on:** February 06, 2006, 07:45:26 AM »

That is for the FW-190V5g and FW-190V5k.

Both developmental prototypes and those particular calcs are using the BMW801J series of turbocharged engines.

Big Conspiracy here!

gripen · « **Reply #295 on:** February 06, 2006, 08:35:31 AM »

The speed claimed at 5,6km is far beyond the capabilities the airframe at given output (which is BTW less than claimed for the 801D).

gripen

Waffle · « **Reply #296 on:** February 06, 2006, 09:36:58 AM »

Was this the thread arguing about the 801?

Anyway, found this from Johann Schmitt...

"Toward the end of the war, we had a FW190 D powered by a Jumo 213 for a short while. I was suprised by how quite and vibration-free the the Jumo 213 was, much different than the BMW 801. Through all the testing I never really cared for the BMW 801. The engine ran rough and vibrated heavily."

Waffle · « **Reply #297 on:** February 06, 2006, 09:42:41 AM »

Also Crumpp - can you verify that the 801D was the last production of the 801s? From my understanding the 801E was supposed to go to production, but never did..and there was a "bastard" 801 instead which consited of 801E designed parts combined with 801 D parts.

Crumpp · « **Reply #298 on:** February 06, 2006, 09:56:33 AM »

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(which is BTW less than claimed for the 801D).

Actually it's similar to the BMW801D2 at this height.

Your making some huge assumptions off a little bit of information, Gripen.

First your whole premise is just stupid.

Your comparing an early developmental prototype trying to draw conclusions on the accuracy of Focke Wulf's predicitons.

These predictions were not reported to the RLM as official performance figures nor are they guarenteed. They are for a "new type" estimate. No one had ever done the type baffling and cooling fan combination found on the Focke Wulf nor was the power plant much more than a prototype on a bench. In fact it simply did not materialize and the FW-190V5g and FW-190V5k flew with the BMW-801C0.

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With "New Type" aircraft, however, the error might be up to 6-7% in speed, and 200-250 ft./min. in climb.

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The speed claimed at 5,6km is far beyond the capabilities the airframe at given output (which is BTW less than claimed for the 801D).

I imagine it is correct if you use the correct inputs and not try to misrepresent the weights.

All the best,

Crumpp

Crumpp · « **Reply #299 on:** February 06, 2006, 10:18:43 AM »

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Through all the testing I never really cared for the BMW 801. The engine ran rough and vibrated heavily."

I think you mean Johann Schmid 3/JG26?

If that is the case I would certainly understand as he flew in the Operational Test flight 190 and helped overcome many of the intitial problems.

Of course he was KIA during the war.

Johann Schmitt..do you have more information as too what unit he served and what aircraft he flew? Radials do vibrate much more than inline engines. That does not mean the BMW801 vibrated excessively in comparision to other radials. In fact the Lufterrad is designed to operate at the motors frequency of 700cps and will uncouple at disturbances of half that magnitude.

All the best,

Crumpp