Maybe the 190s arent wrong....or how to be really unpopular in 1 step

[Crumpp]

Also Crumpp - can you verify that the 801D was the last production of the 801s? From my understanding the 801E was supposed to go to production, but never did..and there was a "bastard" 801 instead which consited of 801E designed parts combined with 801 D parts.

The BMW801D2 was not the last production 801 series.

[Waffle]

nope Johann Schmitt...

Was in Hexengrund at the Torpedo Weapons Station. Presume - 44 untill end of war.

What was the last production run of the 801 series?

[F4UDOA]

The idea that aero engineers and/or test pilots lie or tweak numbers for political reasons is pure bunk, imo - even in soviet russia.

Say FW lies and says the 190 is a super-plane - i think the LW + RLM might complain when the aircraft don't live up to their claims, hmm?

In Soviet Russia, the engineers + factories faced serious trouble if the a/c produced weren't up to scratch, so it would make much more sense to deliberately under-rate your designs so the production models can live up to the prototype numbers...

Got to disagree there. Even in the corperate world today technology companies lie like dogs to front sell there products even at the expense of the common soldier. The fix it in the field mentality rules.

Rule number 1 of facist dictatorships.

Don't be the guy to give bad news, hence the phrase "don't shoot the messenger".

Would you want to be the guy to go to German high command in 1944 and tell them that you have a "small problem"? They weren't exacty living up to OCEA regulations back in the day.

[Crumpp]

What was the last production run of the 801 series?

The BMW801E.  Entered production in March 45.  I highly doubt any made it on aircraft.  It takes T3 around 6 months to build a reserve of motors before service adoption.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Waffle]

I read the the 801E was ready for production, but never made it into full production due to the shortage of machine tools late into the war. Hence them combining parts/components of  the 801E and 801D into a "frankenstein" engine of sorts.

But since the 801E never made it onto an aircraft used in WW2.. I guess it's a moot point.

[Crumpp]

Got to disagree there. Even in the corperate world today technology companies lie like dogs to front sell there products even at the expense of the common soldier. The fix it in the field mentality rules.

Problem is that the facts just do not bear out once you get past the new type development estimates.  Even then it generally wildly over inflated the differences.  For example FW-190V5k flew with a completely different motor from the estimate sheet Gripen posted.  Those estimates do not apply.

However in flight the FW-190V5k did 714kph at 5.6km.  Given instrumentation errors and a motor developing less power at that altitude I would have to conclude this estimate would have been conservative.

Here we see the Bf-109 production estimates compared with actual flight-testing:

For the estimate, comparing similar power output and altitude, in this case Steig u Kampfleistung at 0 meters we find the estimate given at 523kph using 1165PS.

http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=27&L=1

Actual flight testing, at Steig u Kampfleistung at 0 meters we find the measured speed at 526kph using the actual 1170PS.

http://www.beim-zeugmeister.de/zeugmeister/index.php?id=26&L=1  

Well within the 1% standard for production estimates and highlighting the fact production estimates tend to be conservative.

That is not to say that mistakes do not happen.  However the implication of a general trend towards optimistic production performance estimate is not true.  

Neither is the conspiracy theorist notion of cooking the numbers to avoid punishment.   You have to deliver a product and you will simply not be able to hide the fact your product is not what the customer bought.

nope Johann Schmitt...

He is certainly entitled to his opinion.  It does differ from many of the Focke Wulf pilots whom I correspond with and the findings for Rechlin, BMW, Wright Aero Engine Company, and the RAE.  In comparison to other radials the BMW801 properly set up does not vibrate excessively.  The motor exhibits normal range of design frequency.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

I read the the 801E was ready for production, but never made it into full production due to the shortage of machine tools late into the war.

There were quite a few other motors.  Your thinking of the BMW-801Q2(TU), BMW801S1,S2 (TS-1, TS-2) and BMW801H1 (TH).

Those motors did make it into production begining in Dec 1943 and can be found on FW-190's after July 1944 in substantial quantity.

Hence them combining parts/components of the 801E and 801D into a "frankenstein" engine of sorts.

That is the BMW801Q2.  All FW-190A8R11's were built with this motor as the increased armoured ring restored the CG limits with the R11 kit.  If the aircraft mounted a BMW801H1 or BMW801S2 then the aircraft was designated FW-190A9/R11.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Waffle]

Originally posted by Crumpp


 

He is certainly entitled to his opinion.  It does differ from many of the Focke Wulf pilots whom I correspond with and the findings for Rechlin, BMW, Wright Aero Engine Company, and the RAE.  In comparison to other radials the BMW801 properly set up does not vibrate excessively.  The motor exhibits normal range of design frequency.

He also said " Our engines were somewhat skeptical and called in experts from focke-wulf"

If a ground crew at a testing facility couldn't keep these engines running why did they have to call in experts from FW to come out?

BTW do  you have Hauptmann Gollob's report on the FW 190 - Rechlin, Jan 1942?

[Crumpp]

He also said " Our engines were somewhat skeptical and called in experts from focke-wulf"

You better clarify with him then.  Sound to me like he is refering to inititial testing phase of the BMW801C0.  The program came within a hair's breath of being cancelled.

During that first few months more than 40 design changes were enacted.

BTW do you have Hauptmann Gollob's report on the FW 190 - Rechlin, Jan 1942?

Yes I sure do.  Also a BMW801C series.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Waffle]

What engine was in the a5 production wise?


Also, if you read that report....you will notice that the troubles made the 190 fall well short of the 109. Also from that report it looks like they were even trying to steer away from the 801c/d's and in favor of the db603.

[gripen]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Actually it's similar to the BMW801D2 at this height.

The BMW 801D2 did about 1440ps + exhaust thrust at 5300m. Using NACA estimation methods, that means roughly 12-14% output increase ie equivalent shaft power was somewhat over 1600ps.

Originally posted by Crumpp

I imagine it is correct if you use the correct inputs and not try to misrepresent the weights.

Well, the V34 with BMW 801F weighed 3575kg, was unarmed clean A-5 airframe and did a bit less than 680km/h with 1,65ata 2700rpm at 5300m. The engine output was around 1700ps + exhaust thrust, shaft equivalent power being somewhere around 1900ps.

gripen

[Crumpp]

Also, if you read that report....you will notice that the troubles made the 190 fall well short of the 109.

That is an 801C series motor not the BMW801D2.  And yes at that time they sure did fall short of the 109.

Well, the V34 with BMW 801F weighed 3575kg, was unarmed clean A-5 airframe and did a bit less than 680km/h with 1,65ata 2700rpm at 5300m. The engine output was around 1700ps + exhaust thrust, shaft equivalent power being somewhere around 1900ps.

Keep guessing.  You’re never going to figure out what happened.  And I think it is just too funny that your arrogant enough to assume the designers knew less than you.

All the best,

Crumpp

[gripen]

Originally posted by Crumpp

Keep guessing.  You’re never going to figure out what happened.

I have not quessed anything here.

Originally posted by Crumpp
And I think it is just too funny that your arrogant enough to assume the designers knew less than you.

I have not assumed anything about designer's knowledge here. FW was simply selling planes to RLM.

gripen

[Crumpp]

Allow me to give you a big hint.  Don't take it the wrong direction though.

From an allied report on the state of German Engines during the war:

 

Your talking about an early BMW801H series motor you know.  You love comparing prototypes with no regard for their place in the line up or developmental sequence.

Comparing FW-190V34 to FW-190V5k is like comparing apples to oranges.  Totally different aircraft with totally different specifications.

All the best,

Crumpp

[gripen]

Originally posted by Crumpp

Your talking about an early BMW801H series motor you know.  You love comparing prototypes with no regard for their place in the line up or developmental sequence.

It's output is known and far above 1430ps (turbo) at 5600m.

Originally posted by Crumpp

Comparing FW-190V34 to FW-190V5k is like comparing apples to oranges.  Totally different aircraft with totally different specifications.

Actually I'm comparing the numbers of the larger airframe (18,3m2) to V34 which are quite similar and weighs are close.

gripen