Author Topic: Calculating Best Climb Speed?  (Read 604 times)

Offline hammer

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« on: January 29, 2006, 05:36:17 PM »
Anybody have a method for determining best climb speed at various altitudes using the information available in AH? Trying to figure out how to check accuacy of climb charts.
Hammer

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Offline Krusty

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2006, 07:15:41 PM »
I have always wondered why the speed was xxx for each plane (each plane having its own) and would like to see any results you find, but I know nothing on the matter.

Offline gwshaw

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2006, 11:13:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I have always wondered why the speed was xxx for each plane (each plane having its own) and would like to see any results you find, but I know nothing on the matter.


The reason each plane is different is because of differing drag and P% curves, but it can get pretty complicated. A drag curve is shaped like a U, at the left side induced drag dominates, at the right side pressure drag does. Where the induced drag and pressure drag curves cross is the point where the aircraft is at absolute minimum drag, and theoretically has the most excess power available for climb. In general, the higher the wingloading the higher the crossover speed will be, and typically the higher the climb speed. Modifying that speed is the thrust/hp relationship, ie thrust = hp * 375/TAS(mph), so 1 hp @ 125 mph = 1 * 375/125 = 3 lbs thrust, while 1 hp @ 187 mph = 2 lbs thrust. Then you need to take propellor efficiency into account (P%), you may have a prop that does 80% at 180 mph TAS, but only 60% at 150 mph TAS so you are better to climb at 180 mph TAS than 150 mph TAS. Then as you get higher IAS and TAS start to diverge, so optimum climb speed MAY decrease at higher altitudes.

Like I mentioned, things can get kind of complicated, and this isn't even taking into account cooling or control/stability requirements.

Greg Shaw

Offline hammer

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2006, 12:08:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I have always wondered why the speed was xxx for each plane (each plane having its own) and would like to see any results you find, but I know nothing on the matter.


The current default speeds are best climb speed at sea level. You have now exhausted my knowledge on the subject!:rolleyes:
Hammer

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Offline Krusty

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2006, 12:44:20 PM »
I did hear one (unconfirmed) claim that AH uses IAS whereas best climb was measured/computed in TAS or some such.

Offline gripen

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2006, 03:24:07 PM »
There is two ways to determine the best climbing speed in AH:

1. Testing; that needs really lot of work.

2. Calculation; that needs accurate information on drag (Cl/Cd relation), weight, prop efficiency and engine output (shaft and exhaust thrust).

First one is doable if you have time and second one is doable if HTC gives you needed information.

gripen

Edit: AH atmosphere model should be also known.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 03:28:47 PM by gripen »

Offline Krusty

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2006, 03:32:59 PM »
atmosphere is modeled, as far as I know

Method #2 is not suitable for this game, because there's no guarantee that HTC et all has it correct. There may be short cuts or out-right "fakes" to get the same result from computer code. Can't trust that. Unless you know every last bit of logic in the code and how it computes flight, #2 simply isn't feasible.

#1 is the only option, but it seems like it would take forever to test!

Offline Badboy

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2006, 05:16:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hammer
The current default speeds are best climb speed at sea level. You have now exhausted my knowledge on the subject!:rolleyes:

If you accept that the default speeds are the best climb speeds at sea level then you already know everything you need to know. By staying at the default speed, you get the best climb all the way up.

The reason being that the best climb speed measured in EAS is approximately constant for propeller driven aircraft. The good news is that EAS and IAS can be considered to be the same in Aces High, and since the IAS in Aces High is held constant during the climb, you will be at the airspeed for optimum climb all the way up.

This can be confusing because the situation is different for prop’s and jets and not every source will make the distinction. For a jet aircraft, the EAS for best climb will drop with altitude. So if you are flying a simulation with jet aircraft it may be better to hold constant TAS or constant Mach number in the climb, depending on the altitude/thrust relationship modelled. For example, by using that technique for the 262 in Aces High, you can improve the time to climb to 20k by about 8%. That’s valuable knowledge and a worthwhile performance increase in any sim that models jets. However, for the majority of aircraft in Aces High, the speed you already know is all you need.

Hope that helps…

Badboy
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Offline HoHun

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2006, 06:21:29 PM »
Hi Badboy,

>If you accept that the default speeds are the best climb speeds at sea level then you already know everything you need to know. By staying at the default speed, you get the best climb all the way up.

Hm, as a first approximation that's correct, but only as an approximation.

Here is a discussion on this topic copied from an earlier thread:

---cut----------------------------------------

>will speed of climb and rate of climb be constant with a constant MF pres?

First, let me modify the question to "... at constant power" to make things a little easier :-)

With constant power over altitude, the rate of climb will drop. If you'd climb at constant true air speed, this drop would be pretty bad, since the thinner air would require you to increase the angle of attack quickly, making the wing more and more inefficient, until you'd stall out.

To climb more efficiently, you have to increase the true air speed to keep the angle of attack shallow (thereby avoiding the stall).

Now you could try and keep the angle of attack at the optimum for climb at sea level, which would mean keeping the indicated air speed constant. You'd still lose climb rate over altitude since the higher resulting true air speed in the thinner air at altitude would mean that the thrust produced by the propeller would decrease, leaving you with a decreased climb rate.

The solution is to find the optimum speed where the angle of attack is still pretty shallow, and yet the thrust is still pretty good. This solution involves true air speed increasing with altitude, but indicated air speed actually decreasing.

In other words, the climbing aircraft would fly with a greater angle of attack, but nevertheless climb on a shallower flight path for the optimum rate of climb.

However, even flying at the optimum speed, the climb rate would still drop with altitude. There's no way around that :-)

---cut----------------------------------------

I'd add that once the propeller tips start going (close to) supersonic, a reduction in forward speed to reduce propeller tip speeds helps to improve the climb rate. An opposite influence is exerted by the exhaust thrust which increases with altitude and is more useful at higher speeds.

Pilot's notes sometimes quotes statements like "Best climb speed 170 mph IAS, reduce by 3 mph for each 2000 ft over 15000 ft" (I made up this example) to account for the various effects I've described.

The well-known Fw 190A-8 performance chart provides another example for climb speed decreasing with altitude. According to my analysis, the optimum climb speed graph is actually more complex than given by that chart, but as there is a wide region of very good climb around the optimum, a simplified rule for the climb speed will be very close to the optimum even when it's simple enough for the pilot to actually remember it :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2006, 02:07:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy
If you accept that the default speeds are the best climb speeds at sea level then you already know everything you need to know. By staying at the default speed, you get the best climb all the way up.


Hm... The best climb speed (EAS or IAS) should decrease slightly when altitude increase in real world (TAS should increase as HoHun noted). If we assume that AH is an imitation of the real world, that should happen in AH too.

gripen

Offline Badboy

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2006, 05:55:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Badboy,

The well-known Fw 190A-8 performance chart provides another example for climb speed decreasing with altitude. According to my analysis, the optimum climb speed graph is actually more complex than given by that chart, but as there is a wide region of very good climb around the optimum, a simplified rule for the climb speed will be very close to the optimum even when it's simple enough for the pilot to actually remember it :-)

Yep, even in the case of a jet, where the best climb speed is constant mach, in AH you can only gain about 8% by holding constant mach instead of the default, and that is hardly worthwhile considering the extra workload involved, and the correspondingly reduced SA. For a prop fighter, the approximation of holding constant EAS is good enough that an alternative climb schedule wouldn’t be worthwhile. In reality it depends on how the product of prop efficiency and equivalent shaft power (which automatically includes exhaust thrust) varies with speed and altitude. As you pointed out, if the prop efficiency is affected by tip speed losses, and depending on how the power varies with altitude, the accuracy of the approximation will vary, but for altitudes between sea level and the critical altitude where the prop tip losses are not a factor and where the power variation is small, the approximation is surprisingly good.  I found a climb schedule that slightly improves on the Aces High default for a jet fighter, but I suspect you won’t find an improved climb schedule for the prop’s that would be worthwhile in Aces High.  

Badboy
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Offline Badboy

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2006, 06:09:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Hm... The best climb speed (EAS or IAS) should decrease slightly when altitude increase in real world (TAS should increase as HoHun noted). If we assume that AH is an imitation of the real world, that should happen in AH too.

Correct. However, the reason a constant EAS climb speed is a good approximation is that the best climb speed depends on how the product of prop efficiency and equivalent shaft power vary with speed and altitude. Most of the activity in Aces High occurs at relatively low altitudes where those factors only yield around 3% improvement in climb rate in Aces High, or just a few seconds in a climb to 20k. Also, there are some flight model issues that tend to make the approximation even better in most flight sim’s than in the real world, but that’s another topic. So I think any advantage is outweighed by the workload involved, and in practice would most probably be lost anyway by pilot errors (PIO) in trying to make the small adjustments. Also in a hostile environment, the potential gains are unlikely to justify the loss of situational awareness caused by a manual climb schedule.

Badboy
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Offline Angus

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2006, 06:23:20 PM »
So, AH's auto-climb could theoretically be modded up a little bit to give the maximum possible climb, right?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Widewing

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2006, 06:50:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy
Correct. However, the reason a constant EAS climb speed is a good approximation is that the best climb speed depends on how the product of prop efficiency and equivalent shaft power vary with speed and altitude. Most of the activity in Aces High occurs at relatively low altitudes where those factors only yield around 3% improvement in climb rate in Aces High, or just a few seconds in a climb to 20k. Also, there are some flight model issues that tend to make the approximation even better in most flight sim’s than in the real world, but that’s another topic. So I think any advantage is outweighed by the workload involved, and in practice would most probably be lost anyway by pilot errors (PIO) in trying to make the small adjustments. Also in a hostile environment, the potential gains are unlikely to justify the loss of situational awareness caused by a manual climb schedule.

Badboy


Which is why I advocate using auto-climb as the benchmark. Relative to each other, auto-climb provides all any pilot needs to know about the sustained climb performance of all aircraft in AH2. Minor deviations don't matter, because as you point out most pilots will induce even greater deviations over the whole of the climb.

If anyone doubts this, feel free to race auto-climb to 20k from sea level. You will usually lose, and even when you do get there sooner, the difference is utterly inconsequential.

My advice to Hammer is to record climb rates with auto-climb.

My regards,

Widewing
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Widewing

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Offline HoHun

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Calculating Best Climb Speed?
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2006, 04:00:46 PM »
Hi Badboy,

>As you pointed out, if the prop efficiency is affected by tip speed losses, and depending on how the power varies with altitude, the accuracy of the approximation will vary, but for altitudes between sea level and the critical altitude where the prop tip losses are not a factor and where the power variation is small, the approximation is surprisingly good.  

I agree, the reduction in indicated climb speed only has a noticable effect above full throttle height.

Using my Fw 190D-9 analysis, for the variant I've currently dialed in the data compares as follows (full throttle height 4400 in the climb):

Optimum climb speed: 206.3 s to 4400 m, 565 s to 8800 m
Sea level climb speed: 206.5 s to 4400 m, 578 s to 8800 m
Optimum constant climb speed: 207.5 s to 4400 m, 568 to 8800 m

with

Optimum climb speed: 292 km/h IAS @ 0 m, 241 km/h IAS @ 8800 m
Sea level climb speed: 292 km/h IAS
Optimum constant climb speed: 263 km/h IAS

I have to admit that when replying to your post, I wasn't aware of just how small the benefits are :-)

I figure the difference shoud be more important when we're talking about bombers as those have much less excess power and spend much more time in the climb. A small benefit will be much more noticable there :-)

I fully support Widewing's comment on test methods. It might be a good idea to check whether the default speed is indeed (close to) the optimum climb speed, though - if it's far off, the results would be pessimistic.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)