Author Topic: open an close cockpit  (Read 3759 times)

Offline helldiver

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open an close cockpit
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2006, 08:59:59 PM »
yes.yes i have!:D

Offline RAIDER14

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open an close cockpit
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2006, 10:24:32 AM »
ever stuck your head out of a plane going 250mph:lol

Offline Saxman

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« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2006, 12:22:53 PM »
"Dangit! Can't see around the oil! Better open up the canopy."

*Pokes head out*

*WHACK!*

*Pilot Kill as my head is slammed into the canopy frame*
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline helldiver

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open an close cockpit
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2006, 01:47:18 PM »
yes after a bird shattered the canopy

Offline Bullethead

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open an close cockpit
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2006, 08:30:25 PM »
Sorry to dig this old thing up, but I'd like to add my vote for having canopies that open.  I was gonna ask for this, but did a search first and found this :).

It was, in fact, common practice to fly with the canopy open, not only for CV ops but also just when cruising at low to medium altitudes.  Especially in warm seasons and climates.  Look at how many pics you see of USN planes especially cruising along with the top down.

Plexiglass canopies act just like plexiglass greenhouses.  Sunlight comes through the plexiglass  from above and heats the cockpit interior (which is usually a fairly dark color that collects heat).  However, the IR heat radiated by the warmed interior can't escape through the plexiglass.   Thus, the cockpit interior temperature rises.  Another contributing factor is heat coming back from the engine, especially on air-cooled engines.  With liquid-cooled engines, the heat gets channeled away from the cockpit to the radiators, but with the radial engines, the cockpit is actually in the heated airflow coming off the cylinders, especially if there's a cowl flap on the top.  This is perhaps why pics of open cockpits are more common for USN planes than USAAF.

WW2 planes didn't have air conditioners, so the only way to cool the cockpit was to either go high enough that the cold outside air sucked the heat out, or let in fresh air from outside.   Most planes had small fresh air vents, but at low to medium alts on hot days, especially with a radial engine, these didn't do enough.  Therefore, the pilots often opened the canopy, which not only let in way more air, but removed the greenhouse effect, which was the main cause of the problem to begin with.

In addition, of course, pilots could see better with the canopy open, so (unless they were way up high or it was cold outside), they often had the lid open to have a better chance of spotting the nme.  Then they'd close it when they spotted the nme.  You often see this sequence in the close-ups of old war movies :).

As to closed canopies shattering during a dive,  I can see that being possible even on unpressurized planes.  Canopies almost always had rubber seals around the edges to keep out rain and keep in warmth at high alt, as well as to reduce drag.  These of course weren't perfect seals, so air pressure was the same both inside and out while cruising along at high alt.  However, the seals were good enough to really restrict airflow.  Thus, in dive, the pressure outside would rise faster than the air could get inside through the seals, keeping the inside at a lower pressure.  If the dive was steep enough, and went far enough, I can see it possibly causing a big enough pressure difference to crush the canopy, although I'm sure different planes behaved differently in this regard.

So, I think having canopies we can open at will is quite realistic.  At least for those with sliding canopies or windows, so not on 109s, for example.  But I agree, we need to consider all the game effects.

On the plus side, you get better visibility, cockpit temperature not being a game factor.  However, there should be some restriction on opening the canopy at high alt, because the pilot would freeze.  Maybe have a pilot wound-type fainting spell kick in above a certain alt, but which isn't permanent and just lasts until you close the canopy?

Of course, there's the drag issue, too.  And perhaps some canopies would break off at very high speeds if not latched down closed?

As to pilot damage, on most planes there was no armor in the canopy itself, at least the part that moved, although there were exceptions.  I guess that would have to be looked at plane-by-plane.  But in the absence of moving the armor, I can't see there being much difference as to pilot vulnerability.  In fact, it might make the pilot a bit safer.  For instance, German 20mm had such a sensitive fuze that it would explode on plexiglass, resulting in the pilot eating beaucoup shrapnel from the shell and the canopy.  OTOH, if the canopy was open, maybe that shell would go by right under his nose without hitting anything.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2006, 08:32:46 PM by Bullethead »

Offline Guppy35

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open an close cockpit
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2006, 02:05:42 AM »
So what's the big deal? :)



Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Whisky58

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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2006, 05:45:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bullethead
However, the seals were good enough to really restrict airflow.  Thus, in dive, the pressure outside would rise faster than the air could get inside through the seals, keeping the inside at a lower pressure.  If the dive was steep enough, and went far enough, I can see it possibly causing a big enough pressure difference to crush the canopy, although I'm sure different planes behaved differently in this regard.

Bullethead - I thought if air is moving faster outside the canopy this would result in lower pressure outside (Bernouilli effect) - canopy would explode or rip off.

Some RAF pilots in BoB flew into combat with open canopies because of fear of being trapped in burning plane.

Only reason for having open canopies in AH imho would be to stick my prettythang out at guys who slag me off :)

Regards
Whisky

Offline RTSigma

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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2006, 06:02:47 AM »
Ok, lets have openable canopies. BUT, when you go inverted, you fall out of your plane and the loss theme from Price is Right plays...you know, the tuba one that goes "Bump-ba, bah-dah...weeeeerrrrryoooo"

Sigma of VF-17 JOLLY ROGERS

Offline frank3

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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2006, 08:08:49 AM »
Did bubble-top (360 degrees vision-canopy) aircraft have their canopy opened during flight?
All of the planes mentioned here have framed-canopies, was it possible for the P-47D and P-51D too?

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2006, 12:43:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by frank3
Did bubble-top (360 degrees vision-canopy) aircraft have their canopy opened during flight?
All of the planes mentioned here have framed-canopies, was it possible for the P-47D and P-51D too?


I've seen photos of P51Ds with open canopies but I think it was much less likely with those.  Lots of photos of F4Fs, F6Fs, F4Us, Hurricanes etc.  All with the highback profiles.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline 38ruk

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open an close cockpit
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2006, 04:32:38 PM »
I hit a  bump on the highway with my GSX-R 600 doing around 150 mph ( it shut off at 153)  , and it lifted my head up over the windscreen just enuff that it  felt like it was going to rip my head off , helmet included LOL  . I couldn't imagine what 200mph or higher would feel like , but  i doubt it feels very good . I would assume that not too many pilots tried to stick their heads out unless they had to .

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2006, 04:00:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
This wasn't an option. You were required to keep the canopy open for all takeoffs and landings when operating from a carrier.

My regards,

Widewing


Hiya WW! Long time. You tell em. Keep em honest and keep a rational and historical perspective. :)

But I do want my hook ... gorramit.

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2006, 04:02:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
So what's the big deal? :)





Mmmmmm open canopy pics. Like these too. Hiya, ol bean. :)

Offline Bullethead

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open an close cockpit
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2006, 03:41:43 PM »
Whisky58 said:
Quote
Bullethead - I thought if air is moving faster outside the canopy this would result in lower pressure outside (Bernouilli effect) - canopy would explode or rip off.


Good question, but as I understand this stuff, that's not how it works in this sort of situation.  Air at any alt has a baseline pressure that's a function of alt.  The Bernoulli Effect just causes local redistributions of this pressure to create small areas of relatively high and low pressure compared to the alt-dependent baseline.  Thus, the pressure on the outside of a diving plane continually increases as it gets lower, even if the Bernoulli Effect makes some areas of the surface experience a slightly lower pressure than the altitude alone would otherwise indicate.  Meanwhile, the pressure inside can only increase as a function of how fast air can flow in.  The better the seal, the slower the internal pressure increase, and the greater the resulting pressure difference inside and out.