So much for separation of church and state

[StSanta]

Heya Kieren  

Here goes the next round  
Am snipping a lot to keep text size down; otherwise I on't be able to post the message.

<regarding deathbed repention etc>

For most of us, dying takes more than three or four seconds. This would leave ample time to truly regret all the bad things done in life, and I mean truly regret It's a bit unfair I think, but hey, that's just my view on a specific religious belief.

<self reliance>
Yep. Sort of like a human master that tells you what to do. Removes your self reliance and places you in a dependancy situation.

<god testing us>
We all are subjects to hardships, no doubt about it. Some can be overcome, some cannot. Outrunning an avalanche wearing nothing but climbing crampons would be a good example of an "act of god" that will overpower you. Ain't no arguin' with the laws of physics.
With self reliance, I do not mean "asocial behaviour". I mean relying on the self to provide to as large an extent as humanly possible. I see far too mahy "loving" couples where the interdependency has gone so far as to quell and starve the relationship. It seems, that the relationship with god that Christians have might approach this situation; my way or the highway, with one part being utterly out of control. It is akin to one part putting up some unreasonable demands and then blaming the other part for not fulfilling them.

<god giving us diseases>
God created all living and dead things, including hostile microbes such as bacteria and virus. He even created an anomaly where your own body cells reproduce in a strange way; cancer. Unless you can give me a compelling reason such as "only unrepenting sinners get cancer", I'd say "yes".

I mean, sure, let him be harsh. But these diseases are beyond harsh; they're cruel.

<causes disasters>
This line of argument would suggest that natural disasters only happens to disbelievers or unrepenting sinners. There is overwhelming evidence that it's not so.

Anything that will harm me or my loved ones is evil. That includes natural disasters and disease.

<god the mold of the parent>
He couldda removed some of the more painful random things here in life, as discussed above. And I am not sure he does much to keep us close to him; he puts up a book of rules that are unbending, made us ALL sinners because of the mistakes of others (i.e blaming us for something we had nothing to do) and refuse to discuss rationally alternatives to his rules  .

I for one would like to have a chat with god about some of his rules. I can talk to MY parents about the rules; good parents allow interaction, both ways  .

<god giving us choices>
He puts up a loaded choice. I am not sure how one can interpret it in another way. I am wondering about free will; how do you personally think it somehow evades causality?

<suffer the consequences of our actions>
Mm, it sounds reasonable. But these acts of God also condemn a good deal of people to eternity in hell; say a man that would live to be 80 had nothing happened; he would have time to seek out his spiritual life. Unfortunately, he was killed age 25 as an earthqukae tipped his house on him. No chance to repent; eternity in hell. the greater purpose is also withheld from man. havin seen suffering people through working on hospitals, I must conclude that a god that allows so great pains is not a good god, but an evil one. I've seen people in so bad shape it makes your eyes tear up. An omnibenevolent god would not allow it to happen.

<friend with cancer>
Depending on the type of cancer, one can live a rather worthy lives up until the last month or so. Other diseases do not allow a gracious exit from life. I am saddened that you've lost a friend who by your description must have been a great man; and I am glad he faced his hardships with his head hold up high. Non theists can, and do, do this as well; I don't think faith is needed to fight hardships.

<god not casting him out>
Hm, well, it seems to come down to a greater plan, yet we have no evidence of this, none whatosever. it is, for me, a very unsatisfying way of explaining evil. one that can be used to justify everything, including the Holocaust.  If osomeone were to say your purpose in life is to be an example and they'd then proceed to, in the name of a greater purpose, kill your family and torture you, perhaps you'd question this higher purpose.

<us choosing a life away from god>
It's a  loaded choice. Obedience, and heaven. Questoining, and hell.

<regarding cheeck vs tooth>
Crime is social interaction. Everything we have between humans is social interaction.

That rule is suggesting that all laws are god made; otherwise it would be impossible to apply one and not the other. Laws clearly differ from nation to nation.

<snip gerbil story>

Once again, it is the argument of ignorance; a logical fallacy whereupon one tries to validate ones argument by referring to the unknown - "we do not know that there aren't UFO's, therefore they exist".

I cannot help but to reject it because of the loose logical foundation. Sorry :/.

<our ignorance as to the purpose of things>
But how can you know? Because he said so? With carrots, we learned why as our knowledge expanded. I see no reason to artificially limit ourselves, or to suggest that some things are unknowable; science has been around in its present for for only a few hundred years, yet have transformed society more than all religions combined. Eradicated diseases, increased life span, you name it.

Perhaps god WANTS us to find the answer? The very nature of god means we have to second guess a lot, when issues aren't covered by the bible. Otherwise we have to use bible passages out of context and that's no good.

There are too many questions, and too few answers when it comes to religion. Every answer it provides ineviatbly leads to three new questions. We're told not to ask them as a matter of faith. Combine this with psychological and secular explanation to the religion phenomenon and I find it hard to accept as the truth. There simply are too many contraindicators.

Then again, I am a human lacking faith. I think I am unable to have faith; I want answers, and if I do not get them, I will seek them and question the validity of a claim until I get them. Or take a neutral position, such as "I don't know, and that means I cannot support either claim".

And that seems to be the big difference between me and you; you're a man of faith and I am not.

It's cool that we still can get along and discuss civilly, don't ya think  

Thanks for taking your time explaining your position to me; you've given me some insight into your position and I am sure as I process it in my brain over the next few days, I will be able to understand your position much better.

<S!>

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[StSanta]

Heya Kieren  

Here goes the next round  
Am snipping a lot to keep text size down; otherwise I on't be able to post the message.

<regarding deathbed repention etc>

For most of us, dying takes more than three or four seconds. This would leave ample time to truly regret all the bad things done in life, and I mean truly regret It's a bit unfair I think, but hey, that's just my view on a specific religious belief.

<self reliance>
Yep. Sort of like a human master that tells you what to do. Removes your self reliance and places you in a dependancy situation.

<god testing us>
We all are subjects to hardships, no doubt about it. Some can be overcome, some cannot. Outrunning an avalanche wearing nothing but climbing crampons would be a good example of an "act of god" that will overpower you. Ain't no arguin' with the laws of physics.
With self reliance, I do not mean "asocial behaviour". I mean relying on the self to provide to as large an extent as humanly possible. I see far too mahy "loving" couples where the interdependency has gone so far as to quell and starve the relationship. It seems, that the relationship with god that Christians have might approach this situation; my way or the highway, with one part being utterly out of control. It is akin to one part putting up some unreasonable demands and then blaming the other part for not fulfilling them.

<god giving us diseases>
God created all living and dead things, including hostile microbes such as bacteria and virus. He even created an anomaly where your own body cells reproduce in a strange way; cancer. Unless you can give me a compelling reason such as "only unrepenting sinners get cancer", I'd say "yes".

I mean, sure, let him be harsh. But these diseases are beyond harsh; they're cruel.

<causes disasters>
This line of argument would suggest that natural disasters only happens to disbelievers or unrepenting sinners. There is overwhelming evidence that it's not so.

Anything that will harm me or my loved ones is evil. That includes natural disasters and disease.

<god the mold of the parent>
He couldda removed some of the more painful random things here in life, as discussed above. And I am not sure he does much to keep us close to him; he puts up a book of rules that are unbending, made us ALL sinners because of the mistakes of others (i.e blaming us for something we had nothing to do) and refuse to discuss rationally alternatives to his rules  .

I for one would like to have a chat with god about some of his rules. I can talk to MY parents about the rules; good parents allow interaction, both ways  .

<god giving us choices>
He puts up a loaded choice. I am not sure how one can interpret it in another way. I am wondering about free will; how do you personally think it somehow evades causality?



------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[StSanta]

Part II:

<suffer the consequences of our actions>
Mm, it sounds reasonable. But these acts of God also condemn a good deal of people to eternity in hell; say a man that would live to be 80 had nothing happened; he would have time to seek out his spiritual life. Unfortunately, he was killed age 25 as an earthqukae tipped his house on him. No chance to repent; eternity in hell. the greater purpose is also withheld from man. havin seen suffering people through working on hospitals, I must conclude that a god that allows so great pains is not a good god, but an evil one. I've seen people in so bad shape it makes your eyes tear up. An omnibenevolent god would not allow it to happen.

<friend with cancer>
Depending on the type of cancer, one can live a rather worthy lives up until the last month or so. Other diseases do not allow a gracious exit from life. I am saddened that you've lost a friend who by your description must have been a great man; and I am glad he faced his hardships with his head hold up high. Non theists can, and do, do this as well; I don't think faith is needed to fight hardships.

<god not casting him out>
Hm, well, it seems to come down to a greater plan, yet we have no evidence of this, none whatosever. it is, for me, a very unsatisfying way of explaining evil. one that can be used to justify everything, including the Holocaust.  If osomeone were to say your purpose in life is to be an example and they'd then proceed to, in the name of a greater purpose, kill your family and torture you, perhaps you'd question this higher purpose.

<us choosing a life away from god>
It's a  loaded choice. Obedience, and heaven. Questoining, and hell.

<regarding cheeck vs tooth>
Crime is social interaction. Everything we have between humans is social interaction.

That rule is suggesting that all laws are god made; otherwise it would be impossible to apply one and not the other. Laws clearly differ from nation to nation.

<snip gerbil story>

Once again, it is the argument of ignorance; a logical fallacy whereupon one tries to validate ones argument by referring to the unknown - "we do not know that there aren't UFO's, therefore they exist".

I cannot help but to reject it because of the loose logical foundation. Sorry :/.

<our ignorance as to the purpose of things>
But how can you know? Because he said so? With carrots, we learned why as our knowledge expanded. I see no reason to artificially limit ourselves, or to suggest that some things are unknowable; science has been around in its present for for only a few hundred years, yet have transformed society more than all religions combined. Eradicated diseases, increased life span, you name it.

Perhaps god WANTS us to find the answer? The very nature of god means we have to second guess a lot, when issues aren't covered by the bible. Otherwise we have to use bible passages out of context and that's no good.

There are too many questions, and too few answers when it comes to religion. Every answer it provides ineviatbly leads to three new questions. We're told not to ask them as a matter of faith. Combine this with psychological and secular explanation to the religion phenomenon and I find it hard to accept as the truth. There simply are too many contraindicators.

Then again, I am a human lacking faith. I think I am unable to have faith; I want answers, and if I do not get them, I will seek them and question the validity of a claim until I get them. Or take a neutral position, such as "I don't know, and that means I cannot support either claim".

And that seems to be the big difference between me and you; you're a man of faith and I am not.

It's cool that we still can get along and discuss civilly, don't ya think  

Thanks for taking your time explaining your position to me; you've given me some insight into your position and I am sure as I process it in my brain over the next few days, I will be able to understand your position much better.

<S!>

[TheWobble]

I wish god, or Buda, or The Bronze Midgit or whatever whould strike this thread dead.  UUGGHH I had my share of religion at privats school  

[Eagler]

 

Originally posted by TheWobble:
I wish god, or Buda, or The Bronze Midgit or whatever whould strike this thread dead.  UUGGHH I had my share of religion at privats school  

Hope you did better in religion than you seem to have done in English  

Eagler

[Kieren]

Wobble-

If you notice, this thread has gone on for over 100 posts without flame. Quite a feat, eh? If you are bored please don't feel obligated to read further. Myself, I am happy to have a civil discussion with a person of diametric viewpoint. It challenges the mind and your beliefs. I think Santa must feel the same way (though I am loathe to speak for him).    

Santa-

Back to the topic.  
Think of God's plan for you not as a "my way or the highway" situation, rather as a choice of doing what He wants or not. It sounds as though you believe that God physically flings you aside if you don't do what He wants. I don't think so. God lets you choose to do what He wants or not, but if you don't you move away from Him.  At any point God is there to take you back, to wipe away your sin, to bring you into salvation. Only at the judgement does he make you stand by that decision. But it is your decision, not His.

The standards are tough, and it is impossible to meet them. That is the point of grace. If we didn't need grace to get salvation, why would we need God? If we could achieve perfection alone, what would God's purpose be? We are imperfect, we cannot make ourselves perfect, only God can do that.

As for disease, that is a natural function of life. God doesn't give it to us, it happens. I never said, nor meant to intimate, that unrepenting sinners were the only ones to suffer disease and disaster. I did say that our self-destructive tendencies can cause disease or disaster, but that is not an all-inclusive list. Your life on earth is limited, and you will die in some form or fashion. Cancer isn't evil, it simply is. Avalanches are not evil, nor tornadoes, floods, etc. We are allowed to live in this world, along with all the inherent risks associated with doing so. We can hasten our demise in many cases, but it is also true many things beyond our control do happen. It really doesn't matter though, because it is the soul that is important, not the flesh.

We are inherently sinners, not because Adam and Eve were, but because we are people. Our bodies crave things that our souls shouldn't. Adam and Eve sinned because they were people.

Try this. Imagine the beginning with man in the Garden of Eden (paradise). Now man is in the perfect situation, yet somehow caves in to his darker nature and screws it up. God asks one simple thing, stay away from the fruit of a particular tree. The serpent (Satan) knows precisely how to get between God and man, and does so. He makes man jealous of God's knowledge, and coerces them into eating. Man is then cast out, because sin can't be tolerated in paradise (heaven, that is the analogy).

Flash forward. Moses comes, and leads the fledgling Israeli nation out of Egypt. By now the people, having suffered hundreds of years of slavery, are ready to live for God. But how? God gives the law to Moses, who delivers it to the people. He sets out the holidays and their purposes, the rules for law breakers, daily life, etc. He dies, and the nation marches on. Time passes...

Before long, things are screwed up again. The teachers of the law have added so many of their own regulations, and have strict adherence to the law, that they no longer teach or practice the spirit of the law. The law was twisted, by man, to be a tool for some to gain power and prestige over others. The law was perverted beyond its original intent.

Then comes Jesus. Jesus showed how the law alone could not bring people to perfection, and that only through Him could salvation be won. As Jesus told crowds what they needed to do to be saved, and what things could cause damnation, it became clear to the listeners it was impossible for anyone to live a blameless life. Jesus agreed, and pointed out that He was the way, the only way to salvation. His blood became the ultimate sacrifice (dictated by law, animal sacrifice was part of the religion until this point). The only stipulation to salvation was that you followed, to the best of your ability, Jesus. You will inevitably fail from time to time, but you will be forgiven if you ask.

The string? Paradise-->Fall of Man-->The Law-->Perversion of the Law-->Jesus-->Salvation. God knew what would happen from the first day of the world. He knew that people would inevitably fall short. He provided a way for people to have free will and still be saved. The choice is ours.

Will add more later...

[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 01-26-2001).]

[Gunthr]

<S> Kieren, you really seem to know the  bible. I'm not as familiar with it as you are. Forgive me for interjecting here.

StSanta said, "Perosnally I adhere to "nothing exists absolutely" (and no, that's not an absolute statement .)"

StSanta, that is a wrong statement, based on the premise that you know absolutely everything and are able to judge whether it exists absolutely or not. I get the feeling that you are used to arguing points very logically, relying totally on strings of words to sew a water-tight case. The problem is, I think you miss the truth.

Could you concede that, instead of your assertion "nothing exists absolutely", that in reality, it may be that certain things do exist absolutely, but they may be outside your knowlege or experience?  Say, like the radio waves that passed through early man's body without him even being aware of it, let alone quantify it?

You really shouldn't be so fast to deny the existence of God.  

Gunthr

[StSanta]

Gunthr, it's only a logical contradiction if I was to claim that "nothing exists absolutely" is an absolute statement. I don't. I claim it as a fact, based on available evidence. Facts are not 100% bulletproof as history has proven.

Furthermore, I am a disbeliever, not a denier. I lack a faith in god and I lack a faith in Nirfur, God Of All Things Yellow And Purple. I was born without a faith, and I have remained so for my life. Unlesss you count "believing what your parents say" period prior to the age of reason.

I say like Hawking that the "...existance of god is very very unlikely indeed". Sort of like with Nirfur.

How quickly do you dismiss the idea that there might not be a god, or that evidence, phsyical and scientifical, is very scarce, despite the Christian religion having existed in 2000 years? How do you react when you see how many things that Christians used to believe that have been proven false? Do you see it as an intenital flaw in the bible when it contradicts modern science? (such as plants growing before there was sunlight etc)?

There are MANY questions to be answered if you want to rationally justify a belief in a belief system as complex as the Christian one. My position is easier to justify; I'm just a skeptic and some dudes come with a claim - I say "support your assertion". I do *not* say "god does not exist". He might. Or she might. She might be Nirfur, even though he's a she.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[AKSeaWulfe]

no text

[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 01-26-2001).]

[StSanta]

Hi again Kieren, the Christian dude who can discuss civilly  .

Think of God's plan for you not as a "my way or the highway" situation, rather as a choice of doing what He wants or not.

But this is "his way or the highway" - and with a really loaded choice. it's really worse than that; it's "my way or hellish torture for eternity". Now, I am pretty sure the idea of hell cropped up when people were less educated than we are nowadays - nowadays many of us are used to abstract thought and do not need to be scaed into believing ina  pilosophical system. It's a remnant of past times, I feel. If you look ath the Danish state church, it rarely speaks of hell; instead it does what you do; speak of heaven.  A shift that has arrived during later years and one I welcome.

I do not believe god physically can sling me around  . If I am dead, I am in a spiritual state which is decidedly non physical. It's what he chooses to do with me at this point I'm referring to.

And again I must say that God presents us with a loaded choice. In my previous example with the ccoals; it is much the same here. We are to consider the pusher good, and our decision the imperative thing. I must disagree.

To me, measuring someone by standards that cannot be reached and then personally picking the destiny of someone forced to play the game sounds a little sadistic to me. It's the stuff Roman emperors would appreciate. Again, I find it hard not to find it disagreeable.




------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[StSanta]

Part Deux

The answer to your question about the need for a god is, of course, that we don't  . Deism is a perfectly acceptable religious faith I feel; god or gods created what is and then buggered off/were destroyed at the completion. It's a bit easier to explain than is Christianity, but probably less rewarding to do so  .

We make ourselves what we are - sure we're limited. Limited does not mean flawed; a tire for Formula One racing is limited, but in a race, it's the best there is. Humans have evolved through thousands of years and are now the dominant species. We're doing very good seen from that point of view; perhaps *too* good.

Without my limitations and if we go to the microlevel, my flaws, I would not be me. If god made me perfect, he would forever alter me and it would not be me who shared his kingdom in heaven. Which of course brings up some questions regarding body and mind, but that's a whole different discussion  .

Disease is clearly put into the world by God, since he is the creator. It randomly strikes people depending on circumstances to a large degree - in some case, modern science would say that some are more prone to certain sufferings due to their DNA makeup.

I feel I must reiterate; for me, anything that'll kill or maim me or my loved ones is evil. Not a categorical statement but an overall one; I can think of things worth dying for. Not many though.
Isn't it a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy to say that self destructive behavior will harm the individual?  .
Avalanches and other disasters may cause someone who would, if he had the opportunity to live longer, repent. A lost soul for god, by an Act Of God (and I've heard many Christians describe natural disaster in this way).

I understand that that the important thing in the Christian philosophy is not the present or even near future; but what happens once we die. And again I feel it is stomping on the factual for the remotely possible, but your mileage may (and inevitably will!) vary  .

With regards to sin; are other animals also inherently sinners? I feel the special status given to humans is undeserved; as does modern science. We're capable animals that have some qualities other animals do not, but we're animals nevertheless. We're simply using what evolution has given us. We're not outside natural selection.

under the right circumstances and with the right technology and time, I am confident we as humans could breed ever increasingly intelligent monkeys. Once they reach the cognitive levels of say an 8 year old, which clearly is a sinner, we'd have to include them (given similar performance) into the list of animals who are to be judged when they die. Again, it raises questions.

Assuming we're inherent sinners; why are we convicted before we have done the crime? Because of our ancestory? This, I feel, is not right. The things our body crave that are sinful IMHO, are things which can destroy the body. Even these are the result of a complex brain in a very fast developing society - we're using the same basic features now as we did many thousands of years ago - our response to situations that are much more complex are different, but based on the same. Sort of like an equation.

God did not have to tempt the human animal. He did not have to place a deceiver amongst mankind.

And, moreover, it is to me distateful to condemn man for seeking wisdom! Wisdom is a necessity for us - wisdom leads to understanding, and it is the *only* way forth. What did god have to fear from us gaining wisdom? Rejection of Him? Perhaps that is so; because it is quite easy to make him appear extremely unsympathetic. It seems all of the problems could have been solved had he done his job better, and now he's blaming it all on humans. His creations. Flawed by design. His design.

And he designed us the way we are, yet he condemn us when the flaws show up. I cannot call such a deity a benevolent one.

Sounds great; this is a good discussion. Ufortunately, it seems I've unfairly gone on an offensive, leaving you on a defensive position that's time consuming and frustrating. Feel free to question my position as well; it is not fool proof  .

In fact, sometimes I feel it's leaking so bad that French people would avoid it and call it a "shower".


------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[StSanta]

Part Deux

The answer to your question about the need for a god is, of course, that we don't  . Deism is a perfectly acceptable religious faith I feel; god or gods created what is and then buggered off/were destroyed at the completion. It's a bit easier to explain than is Christianity, but probably less rewarding to do so  .

We make ourselves what we are - sure we're limited. Limited does not mean flawed; a tire for Formula One racing is limited, but in a race, it's the best there is. Humans have evolved through thousands of years and are now the dominant species. We're doing very good seen from that point of view; perhaps *too* good.

Without my limitations and if we go to the microlevel, my flaws, I would not be me. If god made me perfect, he would forever alter me and it would not be me who shared his kingdom in heaven. Which of course brings up some questions regarding body and mind, but that's a whole different discussion  .

Disease is clearly put into the world by God, since he is the creator. It randomly strikes people depending on circumstances to a large degree - in some case, modern science would say that some are more prone to certain sufferings due to their DNA makeup.

I feel I must reiterate; for me, anything that'll kill or maim me or my loved ones is evil. Not a categorical statement but an overall one; I can think of things worth dying for. Not many though.
Isn't it a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy to say that self destructive behavior will harm the individual?  .
Avalanches and other disasters may cause someone who would, if he had the opportunity to live longer, repent. A lost soul for god, by an Act Of God (and I've heard many Christians describe natural disaster in this way).

I understand that that the important thing in the Christian philosophy is not the present or even near future; but what happens once we die. And again I feel it is stomping on the factual for the remotely possible, but your mileage may (and inevitably will!) vary  .

With regards to sin; are other animals also inherently sinners? I feel the special status given to humans is undeserved; as does modern science. We're capable animals that have some qualities other animals do not, but we're animals nevertheless. We're simply using what evolution has given us. We're not outside natural selection.

under the right circumstances and with the right technology and time, I am confident we as humans could breed ever increasingly intelligent monkeys. Once they reach the cognitive levels of say an 8 year old, which clearly is a sinner, we'd have to include them (given similar performance) into the list of animals who are to be judged when they die. Again, it raises questions.



------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[StSanta]

UGH, gotta learn how to make my replies smaller. Parth III (old BR song btw  )

Assuming we're inherent sinners; why are we convicted before we have done the crime? Because of our ancestory? This, I feel, is not right. The things our body crave that are sinful IMHO, are things which can destroy the body. Even these are the result of a complex brain in a very fast developing society - we're using the same basic features now as we did many thousands of years ago - our response to situations that are much more complex are different, but based on the same. Sort of like an equation.

God did not have to tempt the human animal. He did not have to place a deceiver amongst mankind.

And, moreover, it is to me distateful to condemn man for seeking wisdom! Wisdom is a necessity for us - wisdom leads to understanding, and it is the *only* way forth. What did god have to fear from us gaining wisdom? Rejection of Him? Perhaps that is so; because it is quite easy to make him appear extremely unsympathetic. It seems all of the problems could have been solved had he done his job better, and now he's blaming it all on humans. His creations. Flawed by design. His design.

And he designed us the way we are, yet he condemn us when the flaws show up. I cannot call such a deity a benevolent one.

Sounds great; this is a good discussion. Ufortunately, it seems I've unfairly gone on an offensive, leaving you on a defensive position that's time consuming and frustrating. Feel free to question my position as well; it is not fool proof  .

In fact, sometimes I feel it's leaking so bad that French people would avoid it and call it a "shower".


------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[Kieren]

To the first response...

There are definitely many ways to approach the Bible. If you take the Southern Baptist approach, it is fire and brimstone; the Northern Baptist speaks of the love of Christ. This is the result of teaching more from either the Old Testament or New Testament. The "Old Testament God" is the God of wrath, the creator, the judge, the punisher. The "New Testament God" is the God of love. They are not contradictory. God is the way He is as the situation dictates. Yet Jesus assured us that He was from the same God of Moses, and that not one word of the law was changed. God is consistant.

Hell exists. What is God to do, say "come live with me, but if you don't that's ok, too."? When you talk to your children you give them their choices- they may not like any of them, but those are the choices that are available. You lay everything out and let them choose (if the situation is befitting a child choosing).

I think you need to turn something else around to understand my viewpoint. Your view of God has him sadistically creating a no-win situation for mankind, then revelling in the banishment of tortured souls to hell. What would the point be? He could send us all to hell without the game, skip the slow, boring parts and get right to the real fun. Yes, He could have created us as perfect servants, but He chose to give us the choice to serve Him or not. Why, who knows. That is the purpose of our creation, to serve God.

As far as natural disasters and disease being evil, in a broad sense they are (as they can be brought to ill use by Satan) but they are only tools. In the literal sense evil is the intent to cause malevolence. There is no cognizance in natural disasters or plague. They don't target any particular group. God does allow them to happen. God can use them to accomplish His goals, if He so desires (and He has; many times in the desert the Israelites felt His wrath in the form of disease, snakes, and other natural calamaties). But disease and natural disasters possess no intelligence, therefore are not of themselves "evil".

Animals are not on the same plane as humans any more than man is on the same plane as God. God created man and gave the creatures of the earth to man (Genesis). Man was told to "subdue" them, to rule over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the animals of the land. The animals were not given, as far as I know according to the Bible, souls.

Why are we convicted before we do the crime? Good question, but the answer is easy- God knows all, from beginning to end. He knows what you are going to do before you do. In that sense your life is pre-destined, but it changes nothing. You don't know how this movie ends, so you have to play it out and strive for the best.

Condemning man for seeking wisdom? That isn't what happened with the fruit. All Adam and Eve need done to seek wisdom was to seek God himself. God gave them all they needed. Their particular sin was not seeking wisdom, but why they sought wisdom. You hit is just right, they wanted to be equal to God. As you recall, this was why Satan was cast from heaven to begin with- he wanted to replace God. Biting an apple wouldn't bring them up to the level of God, and Satan knew it. It did expose the envy in the heart of Adam and Eve, and led to lies and evasion of responibility. Paradise was lost to man, but even that was part of the plan. If you take the Bible from front-to-back you see clearly how man was given, even though God knew the results beforehand, a chance to be in paradise forever. Man failed to maintain himself well enough to remain in paradise, so he was cast out. Man sought a means to make himself worthy of heaven, so God sent the law. Man failed to understand and follow the law properly, and it failed. Then God sent Jesus to fulfill the law, and offer the only true way to heaven.

You see, all the Bible up to that point in history was leading, instructing, and illustrating a very saliant point; man would always find a way to screw himself up. The opportunities from God were real. Paradise was real, the law was real, but somehow man always corrupted what God made. This was very obvious by the time of Jesus. God sent Jesus to be the one and only man to live a blameless life. He became the lamb of sacrifice for humanity's sins; only by calling upon that sacrifice can anyone be saved. (By the way, if you want the background of blood sacrifice, let me know)

For those that have commented that I seem to "really know the Bible", let me add a cautionary "don't take my word for it". I am human and am giving my interpretation of my learning. I certainly have made errors along the way, and welcome any corrections. Santa, you do me a great service by keeping this alive; I am forced to defend my views, and to think deeply about my learning and what Biblical verses and passages really mean. I do not feel like I am on the defensive at all, so do not feel the least bit guilty for the questions you ask. Besides, wouldn't I look silly if I cursed you out and told you to get lost?  

[StSanta]

Loving or brimstone-esque? I can dig up some bible quotes that show him (really independent of situation) to be quite a bugger when tiffed, wiping out people in pretty bad ways.

This multitude of interpretations of the bible is a source for trouble - who is right? When two different Christian interpretations meet, inevitably there will be disagreements - and sometimes, these turn extremely violent. Some say the answer is to intrepret some parts literally and other parts metaphorically - unfortunately, the writers of the bible didn't have a red pen for literally and a blue pen for metaphorically. I can elect to see it from one extreme and eventually come out approximating what I want and need to hear.

An omnibenevolent God would not punish his creations in such a way as described in the old testatement, I think. We in our daily life are too civilized for some of those methods - in most of the world, we've outlawed the death penalty. Either our current moral standards to too mushy, or we can find some inconsistencies with the god images of the two testaments.

With regards to Hell; who created this place?  For what purpose? I haven't got the biblical quotes on this one,; only an idea that might be wrong (and therefore I'll wait for an answer before going into detail  )

With your children, you create the best choices you can. You do not, unless you wish to coerce them into following your will, create an extremely bad one and an extremely good one, and then call their choice "free will". I'd have a problem with it, at any rate  .

I am not saying the Christian deity is sadistic. I am saying he is making it a lot harder for his creations than need be, and one can wonder why. The need for god's grace is an example, as is creating goals that are impossible to meet. And I am questioning whether I want to serve such a deity  .

They might not in the Christian philosophy, but they are in my world; things do not need to be conscient to be evil. For me, it's simp,ly a classification of something being "quite bad indeed" - for me or others. Disasters and diseases fall into this category. It's not so much a classification that suggest malicious intent; rather it's judged by the outcome.

The hypotethical monkey situation creates an interesting situation; if given the same ability to choose, are monkeys to be judged by the same standards? You say no, and I believe you.

Of course, I'm also a neo-Darwinist who conisder Genesis to be a metaphorical work; how can plants grow before there is sunlight, and how can there be light with no sun? Just examples. As such, God would have o have put the soul into modern man in a relatively late stage of earths development. It creates additional problems and questions that are hard to answer, unless you interpret Genesis literally.

Thanks for answering my question about us being judged before having done anything wrong. It answers something where I've gotten conflicting answers - namely the question of destiny. Interestingly enough, we almost share a position here - with me holding the opinion that causality is sort of important, I cannot see (other than on a chaotic quantum level which we know very little about) how we really can set ourselves outside of it. We might experience a sense of choice; it is virtual but might not be more. I don't know.

But still, if he knows the answers beforehand, why does he let us go through some pretty horrible things? He has the result of the test already?

Is God fearful of other achieving his level of wisdom, and if so, why? Why is he so insistant on being the one with the über-ride? He seems to go to great extremes to keep an edge on his creations; much like earthly rulers do. God knew the outcome, yet blamed man for doing what he was designed to do. Isn't it akin to building a plane without wings, and then blaming it for not being able to fly properly?

If I was a deity like Jesus, I don't think I'd have much problems going through what he did  . Especially if I knew I was guaranteed a place up with my father.

The trinity also has me confused. God sent Jesus, which basically is part of the divine, down to die on earth, which at any rate is just a temporary testing ground for humans, then took back his Son to him, and we're supposed to be grateful? He died, from a secular point of view, because he was a revolutionary; someone who threatened the stability of the system. And it seems the system was right that he was a threat, as merely 300 years after his death, the old gods were a thing of the past.

For a man lacking faith, it's hard to see how he did anything for me  .

Kieren, I must admit that you seem to have a good grasp of the bible; that's why I am asking you these questions. Normally, I somehow manage to offend the Christians I discuss the bible with and I end up either being yelled at or ignored  . I realize that to believers, my position must seem like a blasphemous one.

So if I turn into blasphemous mode, just lemme know  

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch