Author Topic: US Army brutality in Kosovo  (Read 4092 times)

Offline Maverick

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2000, 03:51:00 PM »
Leonid,

Just what IS your point??? The troops were ordered there to perform a mission given them by politicians. They were not trained or equiped for this job and it is not in their normal duties. Why don't the "civilized" European nations handle their own back yard? Seems they are closer to the problem than the US is.

They screwed up and they were prosecuted. The ex sergeant is now likely residing in Leavenworth. This is a MUCH different prison and far harsher than the typical fed "joint". They still believe in HARD labor, long solitary and very few "priveleges". If you are going to judge the US by the behavior of a few then you are living in a fantasy land. After all, I do not think all Brits are like you do I? Fortunately I know they are not.


Last note. As usual the US put this out in the open for all to see. It wasn't hidden or covered up. It happened and OUR military  took steps to correct it.

Mav

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 09-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 09-18-2000).]
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Offline Dowding

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2000, 04:57:00 PM »
Is Leonid British, Maverick? I didn't realise Seattle was in the UK, although a small village just outside London might have a similar name.  

Are u an ex-pat Leonid?

Maverick - I don't know what Leonid's point was, couldn't say, but perhaps there was no point and he just wanted to see the reaction. His post is a purely factual news report I think, and as such doesn't seem to carry any bias.

BTW Boroda, I'd rather believe CNN or the BBC than any Russian news service - just look at the job they did in covering up Chechnya, and how they wouldn't even consider Andrei Babitsky's news reports.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-18-2000).]
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Offline Staga

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2000, 06:04:00 PM »
Leonids post is really "Neutral", I can't find any negative from it ?
(Thought English isn't my native lang.  )

..And still waiting Boroda's answer  

Offline Toad

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2000, 10:24:00 PM »
Here's just ONE example, in just ONE place, in just ONE year of what the US has been spending for the priviledge of being the "world's policeman".  I'd hate to even try to come up with a total number for the last 55 years.

 http://www.bosnet.org/archive/bosnet.w3archive/9609/msg00010.html

NEW  GAO (United States General Accounting Office) REPORT ON BOSNIA
                                8/30/96


"Title: Bosnia: Costs are Exceeding DOD's Estimate, 36 pages.

Precis: The costs of deploying U.S. troops in and around Bosnia as part
of international peacekeeping operations spanning fiscal years 1996 and
1997 could exceed the Defense Department's (DOD) initial estimate of $3
billion by more than $450 million, and further increases  are possible.
DOD
has so far deployed about 22,000 troops to Bosnia and surrounding countries
in an effort to
end years of hostility in the former Yugoslavia. DOD's costs for fiscal
year 1997 will likely exceed the current estimates and depend heavily on
upsoming decisions on force requirements and deployment.

-from Reports and Testimony, July, 1996, p. 25."

Oh, what the heck...here's another:

 http://www.nyu.edu/globalbeat/balkan/Kosiak060799.html


"CSBA estimates that the deployment of 7,000 U.S. peacekeeping troops to Kosovo would cost about $2-3.5 billion a year. This figure reflects the incremental costs of the operation-i.e., the additional costs that would be incurred by the U.S. military, above normal peacetime costs, as a result of conducting the operation."

Like I said, after 5 5years it's somebody else's turn. We have a few things we need to fix at home that are going to cost a bit of money.


[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 09-18-2000).]
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Offline Hajo

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2000, 11:10:00 PM »
Toad!  I must say well put!  I also must apologize for gettting a little angry at what appeared to me "bashing" the good old USA again.
Dowding- yes the people of sudatenland were mostly of german speaking peoples, but so what?  Who gave that country to the UK so they could give it away?  I don't recall the Sudatenland being under "The Empires" umbrella. Also.....I don't know if you recall "lend Lease"....the US was "leasing" destroyers, and aircraft to the UK before the US officially entered the War.  Roosevelt knew the US was going to have to enter the war eventually.  His problem were a few Politicans, one being Henry Cabot Lodge as I recall who were set against getting involved with "Foreign Entanglements"  And who could blame them for feeling that way?  After the first world war the US did not want to fight "someone elses war" again.  Europe had always been a problem throughout history politically,as evidenced by the Treaty of Versailles.  It was probably the number one reason that World War II started.  It wasn't bad enough that Germany had to rebuild it's country after the war also....but they were forced to pay the most rediculous reparations ever heard of!  Wilson, then Pres. of the US did not want them to be so harsh, he wasn't against making Germany pay retribution for the War, but he full well realized that the reparations they were made to pay could possibly lead us into another War!  Hence his idea of the League of Nations, that politicians in US flatly refused to belong to because of Europes Political climate past and present.  Hence, Germanys economy collapsed, not to mention a world wide depression, Germany couldn't pay the reparations.  In order to do so they printed Marks with nothing to back them...therefore depression with inflation, the result being it taking a wheelbarrow of Marks to purchase a loaf of bread!  Wasn't hard to get the nation of germany angry....Hitler appeared on the scene and the rest is History (unfortunately)   Let's not do anything as ridiculous as that again.....the world can do better. <G>

Dowding....by the way I don't recall the US signing the peace agreement with Germany giving them the right to the Sudatenland...also just before world war II Joseph Kennedy was the US Ambassador to the UK <G>  one of his assignments was to tour Germany and let Roosevelt know what was going on.  His report to roosevelt about germany cost him his job as Ambassador to the UK....he reported to Roosevelt in favor of what germany was doing and thought it no threat, Roosevelt knew better, recalled him and that was the end of Joseph Kennedys aspirations to the Presideny of the United States.  He never held high political office again.....but helped his son get elected to the presidency....chiefly by Cook County, the chicago Illinois area.....where the dead voted <G>
But that's another story <G>


[This message has been edited by Hajo (edited 09-18-2000).]
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Offline StSanta

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2000, 05:35:00 AM »
Toad:

Take yer average exponential curve. Then take a country which has X points, which is 20 times as much as any other country has.

Move out on the timeline, see how much time it buys after a while.

The US ain't invincible. It has limited resources and limited morale. And there are a few problems of the exponential kind out there.

It is foolish to wait for a problem to stare in your face, huge and overpowering, if you can deal with it in its infancy. The question of course is whether troops abroad is needed to do this. I have no idea.

As far as what the average American thinks; it sounds a little conflcting to me. The left, which traditionally have had a smaller military budget than the right, seems more prone to committing troops abroad lately. The right on the other hand says "strenghten the defense!" all while calling for the taking home of US troops abroad, which would lead to cutbacks in numbers.

I really have sort of an amused outlook on it, and it will be interesting to see how well the American politicians and population can cope with not being such a big kid on the block anymore. The EU, while still a bureaucratical ineffective mess, will (I believe) grow more and more powerful and if plans go through, will have its own standing army. Africa is of no interest to the US; except future findings in oil and whatnot, and most African countries are weak and corrupt enough to be supressed through money and some manipulation.

Russia is currently too weak to present any real military or political threat, aside from nukes.

The interesting bit would be the Middle East and Asia. There are growing players there.

So, by all means, take 'um home. But I bet a good deal on the right side will eventualy be irritated over not being able to put as much pressure on "countries of interest" and will begin lobbying for more troops. And the cyclus would go on  .

Oh, btw, did you know that the UN specified the AIDS epidemic in Africa as a major concern and a very potent world destabilizer? And the UN is pretty much a US puppet  .

I believe Americans also said something about drug trafficking being a threat to national security.

Whatever way it goes, it'll influence me quite little; sure, some genocides will take place here and there, but my government will keep me fat and happy. Which seems to be the attitude of most Americans, if I am to believe you, which I do  .



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Offline Dowding

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2000, 08:25:00 AM »
Hajo - the help the US gave us before they entered the war was useful and I'm sure we a re all grateful for it. For instance the Eagle squadron of volunteer americans who fought in the Battle of Britain.

But we did stand alone militarily, and very nearly lost.

The Versailles treatment was a disgrace, and is not just probably responsible for WW2, but IS responsible for it. It embittered a generation of Germans, who had the very weak Weimar government to lead them. Nature abhors a vacuum, especially a political one. I know all about the hyper inflation; buying an egg cost billions of marks for eg. But the US were involved in the negotiations, and must share some of the blame as part of the international community. I can understand (but not justify) why the world wanted the reparations - WW1 shocked them, the loser had to lose all.

Britain did not own the Sudetenland - we did not give it away. We did not say "Herr Hitler, why don't you have the Sudetenland, just forget about France". They took it and we turned a blind eye. And that includes the US.

It's alright with hindsight to say, they were a bunch of naive fools to let Hitler do what he did. But look at it from their point of view, and the suffering WW1 caused. They wanted to avoid that at any price. It wasn't until Hitler's intentions became crystal clear, that action was taken; it was too late by then and things went the way they did.

To somehow blame Britain for the appeasement of Hitler is a bit naive. Britain just reflected the political climate at that time.

As for the League of Nations - it was a joke from start to finish with no power to back up its idealistic decrees. It did nothig to stop Hitler also, and was shown to be powerless from its inception.

War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2000, 08:52:00 AM »
Another interesting snippet...

Sunday September 10, 2000

American officials in Kosovo are being accused of interfering with an investigation into a senior Kosovo Albanian politician implicated in murder, drug-trafficking and war crimes.
Ramush Haradinaj, a former commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), was the key US military and intelligence asset in Kosovo during the civil war and the Nato bombing campaign that followed.
In the latest twist in the saga of an increasingly flawed electoral process, United Nations police in the province complain that US personnel withheld evidence about a gunfight involving Haradinaj, who is now head of one of the province's leading political groups.
UN investigators leading the case say US officials based at their main base, Camp Bondsteel, removed forensic evidence from the scene of the gun battle, including bullets retrieved from walls. The incident, which took place in the village of Strellc in the west of Kosovo, is well out of the US Army's area of responsibility, which lies in the south-east of the province.
Following the shooting Haradinaj, known almost universally in the province as simply Ramush, was flown by helicopter to Camp Bondsteel and then onto Germany to be treated in an US Army hospital for shrapnel wounds. UN investigators were denied access to him during that time.
Evidence from the incident was eventually handed over after angry phone calls from Fred Pascoe, the American policeman heading the UN investigation.
The news of American reluctance to co-operate with the investigation comes amid a catalogue of accusations linking Haradinaj to murder, drugs trafficking and war crimes.
The shooting revolved around a dispute between Haradinaj and members of the Musaj family, who accuse him of ordering the murder of their brother and three other men shortly after the arrival of Nato troops in Kosovo in June 1999. The men were all part of FARK (Armed Force of the Republic of Kosovo ), a rival group to the Kosovo Liberation Army.
Three Musaj brothers had visited Haradinaj's father to demand the bones of their brother, a right they had according to Albanian custom. Haradinaj admits he went to the Musaj family home at around one in the morning to stop the brothers from visiting his father again.
This is the second time this year Haradinaj has been caught up in violence. He was injured in a fight with Russian soldiers at a K-For checkpoint in the spring. Western diplomats say he has damaged his party's prospects in UN-organised local elections due this October.
This latest incident does not appear to have damaged his contacts with US military or political figures.
His party officials were invited to a discussion on the future of Kosovo at a meeting organised by the US state department. He himself is currently in Washington on a fund-raising trip and as the guest of a US Congressman, Benjamin Gillman.
His standing with the international community is summed up by British officials who describe him as 'one of the few former commanders of the KLA who can deliver'. They say he was crucial in smoothing over the transition of the KLA from a guerrilla army to a civilian-based national guard.
But British military personnel who liaised with Haradinaj before and during the Nato bombing campaign paint a different picture. One former soldier, who served with the Kosovo Verification Mission, described him as 'a psychopath' and accused him of terrorising his own men and the local population into loyalty to him. 'He would beat his own men to maintain a kind of military discipline,' he said.
'Someone would pass him some information and he would disappear for two hours. The end result would be several bodies in a ditch,' he added
The man said he was also present when Ramush 'went to deal with' an Albanian family who had let Serb police into their house. The incident matches a human rights report issued by the OSCE (Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe) last year in which seven masked men entered a house in the village of Gornja Lucka. Two men were beaten and a third was taken to a nearby canal and never seen again.
During this time the same former soldier says Haradinaj was maintaining daily contact with American military personnel in the US and that these links were then taken over by Nato at the beginning of the bombing campaign in Kosovo.
Another alleged victim of Ramush's men was Suad Qorraj, who had operated a satellite telephone for a rival KLA commander during the war. His family say he went missing from the town of Decani on 23 June 1999, two weeks after the end of the war. On 1 August Suad's charred remains were found in a nearby forest. The burial notice said he had been 'killed by Serbs'.
A year on from Suad's death, Haradinaj still wields considerable power in western Kosovo. 'He can very easily bring the area to a halt,' says Robert Charmbury, UN administrator of the biggest town in the region, Pec, citing as evidence the fight against Russian peace keepers in which the town was 'blockaded in minutes'.
The Alliance party has strong representation on local municipal boards and is discussing the possibility of a pact with the Kosovan Democratic Party (PDK), led by Hashim Thaci, former political leader of the KLA. Such a deal might squeeze out the favourites to win in the region, the Democratic League of Kosovo, in October's elections.
Whatever the outcome of the polls, senior UN officials are concerned about Haradinaj's long-term impact on the province. One aide claims Haradinaj is now financed by two men, Naser Kelmendi and Ekrem Lluka, both of whom are suspected to be involved in smuggling. UN police reports, seen by The Observer, go further and describe Lluka as trafficking drugs and cigarettes in Greece, Kosovo, Albania and Italy.
Meanwhile the Musaj brothers are worried about what Haradinaj will do in the next few weeks. 'If he doesn't attack us before the elections he'll attack us afterwards,' said Sadic Musaj. He and his brother have already built up the walls around their compound in case of another attack. He doubts however whether anybody will take action against Ramush. 'Nothing will happen, he has strong people behind him.'

**

Just to remind people  that things just aren't so black & white as they perhaps wish they were...

Ice

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2000, 11:24:00 AM »
Well well....this O Club is an interesting place

Look guys....the world is full of evil and it always has been...no perfection walks this earth, at least not in the flesh

If the EC is such a mighty group of visionaries, let them handle issues on their own turf...oh yeah, forgot, they want the U.S. to keep funneling cash into their pockets...also doesn't hurt to have us spend our resources so they dont have to spend theirs.

The fault lies with the U.S. and it's leadership...do whatever makes me popular so I can retain power (Bill Clinton and Al Gores Credo). Not that other U.S. leaders have not done the same, jus Bill took it to a new level

I say let the world handle its own crap until you need our help, then we should intervene at a pace so unbelieveably brutal, that the next time the oppressor will give it a thought before abusing anyone.

Last thought....

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

                     God

May God help us all

Later!

Jerry B

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2000, 11:33:00 AM »
Lol - that depends on who anyone decides is the next 'oppressor'...

Offline Hajo

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2000, 11:37:00 AM »
dowding I agree in most repects, well said!  But I am forever marveling at the lack of logic the human race exhibits from time to time. I really don't understand why people go on killing one another for hundreds, maybe thousands of years and get no solution.  Bosnia, and the Palestinians and Israel.  I do however understand that these are political as well as religious differences.  But one would think, that after so many years of killing one another, someone would step forward and say "Hey! This isn't working!"  They have resolved nothing, and accomplished placing the entire world in a precarious position.  One would think that logic would prevail, and all would understand that burying their families and friends for these past many years has been all for naught.  Our President , whom I really don't care for, at least has stepped forward and tried to get a resolution in the Middle east, as have past US Presidents.  But alas........logic does seem to be seriously lacking in the Mid East and the Bosnia-Herzogovina area (excuse my spelling please)  and I'm afraid that either of these two areas could be the start of the worst failure mankind has ever suffered, and probably the last, WWIII, heres' hoping that somehow logic will prevail, emotions bridled, and a resolution of peace is obtained.

OH....and by the way..you mentiioned the weimar republic.....hmmmm weimer, spelling changed when great grandparents came to the US....I know, my last name and village in Germany where my family came from <G>


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Offline Dowding

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2000, 11:50:00 AM »
Well said Hajo, I agree completely.   Sorry about the spelling - couldn't remember the spelling just how it was pronounced. I think.  

It is strange that people keep killing each other for religion etc. But it's alot easier to hate someone who is different to yourself, than find empathy and understanding. Its also very easy to demonize people, and to see them as the faceless 'enemy'. I watched a documentary on the persecution of the Jews through history, and it described how they were frequently described as animals to spur people to treat them as such.

I think that the foreign policy of the States has been largely successful in the decade past - I think Clinton made some difficult decisions and came out with the best solution. Let's hope peace negotiations in the Middle East etc can continue.

Except for the treatment of Iraq, however - but that's a world community problem. Oh, and then there's Cuba of course.  

BTW - just because Bosnia and Yugo. are in Europe doesn't necessarily mean that we should deal with it. We have about as much in common with that area as you do. But I think that we should fight barbarism where it is possible to do so.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-19-2000).]
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Offline Maverick

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2000, 02:54:00 PM »
Question.

When the area in contention is populated by nothing but barbarians, which barbarian group do you support / believe???

 
Mav
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Offline Staga

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2000, 04:10:00 PM »
That one who got some oil  

Sorrow[S=A]

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US Army brutality in Kosovo
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2000, 07:32:00 PM »
Mav- Niether. You take the Russian approach to peacekeeping in Yugoslavia and shoot anyone holding a gun against his neighbour despite his race/religion or politics. Funny how peacefull the Balkans were from 1950-1986 or so...