Author Topic: If Iwo Jima happened today ......... (Read 1209 times)

Yeager · « **Reply #45 on:** February 14, 2006, 11:17:35 PM »

Yes Rolex but what does it all mean............whats the bottom line.

I found your write up very interesting, very intriguing. I have been fascinated by the battle for Iwo Jima since my youth. I have read countless articles, watched every biography on the battle that I think exists in western culture, and own three Iwo classic writings: Bill Ross "IwoJima Legacy of Valor", Richard Wheelers "Iwo" and James Vedders "Surgeon On Iwo" and have read these front to back every few years for the past few decades.

Some of what you speak of is familiar to me, I suspect I have picked up some details through osmosis over the years but I cant help but get the feeling that all too often history is over analyzed by factoid specialists to the point where the core reality of the moment is so diluted by hyperbole as to render the historical facts almost meaningless.

Iwo Jima is a classic example of what happens when two great nations find themselves at odds and end up in a state of total war. Two great military machines experiencing a brilliant life all their own, that will no matter what, find a path to spark into great conflagarations and all the analysis from wars long past lose meaning as men clash into each other, trying to destroy the other before he himself is destroyed.

Still, interesting reading, thanks

Pongo · « **Reply #46 on:** February 15, 2006, 01:07:04 AM »

Maybe with full knowledge and confidence in the atom bomb the invasion of Okinawa would have been unnessasary, but even with that it probably was neccessary for both sides.

Pongo · « **Reply #47 on:** February 15, 2006, 01:11:34 AM »

"The occupation has lasted as long as you say, but let's compare apples to apples. "

I missed where you earlier said the events were not comparable, in fact you seemed to enjoy comparing them. I am just comparing them based on their real characteristics not their imagined ones.

Hangtime · « **Reply #48 on:** February 15, 2006, 10:49:36 AM »

Thanks Rolex.

I can't help but point out that the Pacific War was an arena where many thousands of lives were wasted by piss-poor planing; half assed execution; cowboy leadership and innefective or out of place support elements.

It's also the place where our blunders often turned into spectacular Victories... Doolittles Raid was just a start. Coral Sea, Midway, Guadalcanal, Sungo Straight; Tarawa, Leyte to name but a very few.

I can easily accept that Iwo was poorly chosen, that the defenses were underestimated, that the support bombardment was off target and not long enough... and that due to piss-poor planing; yet again; Marines died.

It's a sad commentary that our Mistakes; covered in Glory; routinely became the 'Go-To' examples for Patriotism, Valour and Bravery. Pretty much the norm for our war history; ain't it?

Again, thanks for the window, Rolex. I might not like the view; but regardless; there it is.

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #49 on:** February 15, 2006, 10:57:50 AM »

Since you mention it, are there any good videos or documentaries on the invasion of Leyte? I've read a couple of good writeups on it, but never seen much on video about the fighting in the Philippines. I try to grab ahold of whatever I can find, since my grandfather was there. It just seems kinda overlooked when it comes to the Pacific war.

Hangtime · « **Reply #50 on:** February 15, 2006, 11:11:37 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Since you mention it, are there any good videos or documentaries on the invasion of Leyte? I've read a couple of good writeups on it, but never seen much on video about the fighting in the Philippines. I try to grab ahold of whatever I can find, since my grandfather was there. It just seems kinda overlooked when it comes to the Pacific war.

Try TAFFY 3 Traditions Military Videos; http://www.militaryvideo.com; VHS; 68 minutes; $19.95.

Classic screw up; complete with Hero's all around and a hail mary save. This one action epitomises the mind set of Idiot Leadership vs the ferocity and bravery of the men in the line of fire. The more I dig up on this action, the more incredulous I become...

Krusher · « **Reply #51 on:** February 15, 2006, 11:20:46 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gunslinger
I didn't realize he was making a second film from a jap perspective. Kinda interesting really.

"tora, tora, tora" was filmed as two movies and then edited into one.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #52 on:** February 15, 2006, 11:20:56 AM »

Rolex
Interesting stuff.

I can not remeber what book I read it in, but and they didnt get in an investigation in the US over Iwo, but it did talk about how many of the troops on the ground were unhappy about the bombardment and that the fast carriers left the area after the first day or so.

Leaving only escort carriers behind for air support.

Angus · « **Reply #53 on:** February 16, 2006, 02:58:09 AM »

From Rolex:
"The courage of those landing on Iwo Jima was beyond words, especially since it was soon known that 1/3 would not make out of there unhurt"

Good point. You know, when the film was being shot (I was an extra there), just climbing the first berm, our sergeant picked out ecerybody born in January and February and said: "you're dead". As soon as you are over the berm you take the first opportunity to drop like a sack of potatoes.
Then he pointed at several others depending on their positions near bombs, machine gun trails and so on and said, you, you etc etc are dead too!!!
The Japanese were well hidden some of them I didn't realize that one of the dunes was a bunker before it started shooting at us!
And mortar fire all over the place. Was a massacre.

Yeager · « **Reply #54 on:** February 16, 2006, 03:14:45 AM »

Okinawa was an intense battle. The Kamakazi was used there for the first time in massive attacks. Just off the top of my head I think 27 US navy vessels were sunk and many more damaged. Cost in sailors lives was somewhere in the several thousands.......On the ground the army suffered severe casualties (30k dead and wounded) and the highest ranking general officer of the US military to die as a result of enemy action died on Okinawa.

Its no wonder the atomic bomb looked so good to US military strategists. The Japanese were putting up an insane resistance. Thank Cod they surrendered after two atom bombs were detonated.

Angus · « **Reply #55 on:** February 16, 2006, 03:42:27 AM »

Yeah Okinawa was terrible.
I knew an old Marine who was on Palau and Okinawa. Still brought tears into his eyes. It was ugly he said.
And the Japanese casualties: always in the excess of 90%. Civilian casualties in Okinawa were also very big. A lot of the population had been brainwashed into beliving that the US would kill them all and there also was a lot of starvation.
It was Okinawa as well as Iwo and perhaps Tarawa as well as the Philippines and Burma that formed the calculation formula of how many lives would be lost bending Japan and I am afraid they were not too high on their estimations.
BTW, not many people know that when the US conquered Manila the Japs went on a killing orgie. Some 100.000 civilians dead if I remember right. They basically fenced themselves in the middle town/citadel with all those people and killed almost all. If you think of that, there is no wonder the Nuke was feasible. More dead in Manila than Nagasaki. More dead on Okinawa then Hiroshima.
Cold blood....

Hangtime · « **Reply #56 on:** February 16, 2006, 10:09:23 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Yeager
Okinawa was an intense battle. The Kamakazi was used there for the first time in massive attacks. Just off the top of my head I think 27 US navy vessels were sunk and many more damaged. Cost in sailors lives was somewhere in the several thousands.......On the ground the army suffered severe casualties (30k dead and wounded) and the highest ranking general officer of the US military to die as a result of enemy action died on Okinawa.

Its no wonder the atomic bomb looked so good to US military strategists. The Japanese were putting up an insane resistance. Thank Cod they surrendered after two atom bombs were detonated.

"The United States Navy sustained the largest loss of ships in its history with thirty-six lost and 368 damaged. The Navy also sustained the largest loss of life in a single battle with over 5,000 sailors killed and an equal number wounded. At Okinawa, US ground forces would incur its greatest losses in any campaign against the Japanese. 183,000 army and marine personnel were landed during the invasion. During those eighty-two days, the Tenth Army lost 7,613 men KIA/MIA and over 31,000 men would be evacuated due to wounds. Moreover, the largest numbers of U.S. combat fatigue cases ever recorded would occur on Okinawa."

Like Gramps said. "We had our tulips handed to us".

We sit on our fluffy couches watching our boys 'n girls an Iraq on TV behind the somber talking head, nod sagely when the president calls it a 'war' and 'tut-tut' about the poor leadership, abu graves, the mounting cost in lives.

It's a skirmish in comparison to fighting the Japanese.