Author Topic: Aces High uses a flip a coin method for collison (Read 2117 times)

Pooface · « **Reply #45 on:** February 16, 2006, 05:45:03 PM »

it could have been in one or two situations, but other times, like in rolling scissors, im just about to shoot them! and there isnt anyone with icon range of me, no flak, nothing

hammer · « **Reply #46 on:** February 16, 2006, 06:15:39 PM »

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Originally posted by Pooface
... i have 'collided' with guys that on my front end are at the extremes 100yrs away, and once at 400 yrds. i haven't hit them on my FE, so it must be that they hit me on their front end right?? well then how come im the one that dies, yet he flies on.

All I can tell you is what HiTech has said over and over... it is not possible for you to collide with someone who appears 400 yds away on your front end. I don't write coad, but I do occassionally stay at a Holiday Inn Express

and the mechanics of what he explains are very easy to understand. The only thing I can think of is maybe you experienced some type of warp. If your computer recieves a position update that places the other plane on top of your plane, you have collided. It still doesn't mean his front end has the same information so he may survive.

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Originally posted by Pooface
and also, the damage that some guys take after colliding is just plain silly. like other people have said before, getting a fuel leak from a collision, and having no other damage is a little ridiculous. there needs to be a fixed amount of damage that a person receives when they collide. getting a fuel leak or a radiator/engine oil out from ramming into several tons of metal, at a combined speed of sometimes 800mph, is, without exception, stupid

Different subject but it tells me that which part of each plane touch is modelled... nothing says every collision is fuselage to fuselage. A wing tip might grab the top of a wing and disable a gun or rip open a fuel tank. I'll bet there are pictures out there of planes that "touched" in the air and did various amounts of damage to each other with one or even both surviving.

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Originally posted by dedalos
Another great explanation. Does it explain why when you get hit from behind while you visually cleary avoided the colision, you get a message that you colided? no

Are you sure you avoided it?

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Originally posted by dedalos
Does it explain why you only lost a gun? no

See explanation above.

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Originally posted by dedalos
Does it explain what else you could possibly do to avoid it? no

Actually it does.... don't collide on your front end. If that means don't come screaming down at 600mph and wait until d100 to take a shot, don't do it ( <-- my personal most common cause of collision!). If it means start your evasive maneuver when a con is an extra 300 or 500 out from your normal start distance, do it.

hammer · « **Reply #47 on:** February 16, 2006, 06:21:13 PM »

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Originally posted by Iceman24
according to the game what constitutes as "tyring to maneuver away from the ram" Is the game taking into account stick movements or what ?

It's not that you are trying, you must successfully maneuver away. Again, it is according to what you see on your computer. If you avoid it on your computer, you avoid it.

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Originally posted by Iceman24
just tryin to understand how a computer or line of code can determine the intentions of an aircraft, how does it know that player A is trying to avoid, and how does it know that player B isn't ?

Even if player B tried to maneuver, say after it was too late to get out of the way but before the ram occurred, he would still suffer a collision.

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Originally posted by Iceman24
Also, does more movement = tryin to avoid the ram more ? for example, 2 planes are headed for the HO, player A simply rolls his plane and goes a hair nose up looking at his monitor he figures thats plenty of room and that his flight path will pass right beside and over player B's plane, player B now pulls a hard break turn at the same time, but somehow player B is a newb and doesn't realize that he turned the wrong way and pulls his turn right into player A causing a collision, both players tried to avoid but it still happened, who rammed who ?

If both computers see the collision, both planes will suffer damage. It doesn't really matter "who rammed who"... the consequences are from the contact and contact is determined by your computer.

Ghosth · « **Reply #48 on:** February 16, 2006, 07:28:07 PM »

Its simple folks, there IS no "Ram".

Only you can cause or prevent collisions.

They can't change the model, any way they changed it would have huge negitive inpacts on gameplay.

All they can do is try to teach people not to fly so close. And if they insist, they take the damage for it.

Simaril · « **Reply #49 on:** February 16, 2006, 07:28:57 PM »

Lemme try a different tack.

There are soem players who see a major problem with collisions. It drives them nuts.

Playing the same game, running the exact same coad, with the same (on average) connections to the exact same server, many others have simply no problem at all. Among those are people (like me) who used to have lots of collisions, then figured out what they were doing wrong -- changed their flying -- and stopped having collisions despite using the same computers and connections as when they did have collision problems.

BY SIMPLE DEDUCTION, THE PROBLEM IS LESS LIKELY TO BE THE CODE AND MORE LIKELY TO BE THE PLAYERS.

Since there are substantial numbers of players who dont have the collision problems that freak you out, the problem isnt on HT's end. If it was HT's fault, then each of us would have the same frustrations and same collisions.

Even if you dont think the solution is fair, the fact is that avoiding the proximity envelope works. It is part of the game. You've adapted to the flight models, the gunnery models, and the damage models; you've learned how to succeed in the AH2 world. Just learn this one more thing.

I know you keep referring to aberrations -- like the dying when 400 away and you didnt come close, the taking damage when the other guys hit you. I suspect your perceptions are incorrect, that in the frustration of the moment you aren't seeing the whole situation. If you're sure you're right, film it and show us....but I'll bet those films are more likely to show that you hit when you didnt think you did, or that you bumped into a second con you didnt realize was there, that you hit fragments of a plane someone else killed, or that you were killed by gunnery.

Tilt · « **Reply #50 on:** February 17, 2006, 09:00:12 AM »

The whole lag thing is one that you need to understand for sim type ACM.

No one sees us at any moment in time where we see our selves. Effectively everyone else sees us some distance behind our momentary position. Equally we see them some distance behind their momentary position.

Trying to get you head round this can be difficult.

I do it this way.

Behind my plane I tow a target..........

everyone else sees only this target......

I only see every one elses target........

I can shoot down their targets, I can collide with their targets

The length of the tow rope is lag...........its the total lag between two FE's so it varies slightly with connection speeds. It also gets longer with aircraft speed. So lets think of it as an elastic rope

For acm you have to realise that your opponent is firing or manouvering onto the target you are towing. It (the target) manouvres slightly later than you do.

Also what you see is his target manouvering slightly later than he did.

You see this classically when two ac merge from a tight hi speed turn nose to nose and one gets a snap shot. To the victim the victor is firng at a point behind the victims plane and yet scores hits........ He hit the target.

By understanding the "elastic tow rope effect" you begin to see loads of ramifications.

1) in a double collision both planes have to hit both targets...... thats rare.

2) its almost impossible to be rammed from your pure 6 position.......

3)Close quarter rolling scissors will offer a high probability of collision, particularly when mixed with snap rolls.

4)Your opponent does not need to get a lead shot on your position he is trying to hit your target............

5)Your opponent properly executing a high speed lead turn will seem to do the impossible by apparantly turning 180 behind you without losing any guns distance.

Simaril · « **Reply #51 on:** February 17, 2006, 09:11:21 AM »

The towed target is an EXCELLENT image...thanks for posting it!!!

Thats just kind of the quick and dirty metaphor that works well on 200.

dedalos · « **Reply #52 on:** February 17, 2006, 09:37:00 AM »

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Originally posted by hammer
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Originally posted by dedalos
Another great explanation. Does it explain why when you get hit from behind while you visually cleary avoided the colision, you get a message that you colided? no
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Are you sure you avoided it?

quote:
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Originally posted by dedalos
Does it explain why you only lost a gun? no
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See explanation above.

quote:
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Originally posted by dedalos
Does it explain what else you could possibly do to avoid it? no
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Actually it does.... don't collide on your front end. If that means don't come screaming down at 600mph and wait until d100 to take a shot, don't do it ( <-- my personal most common cause of collision!). If it means start your evasive maneuver when a con is an extra 300 or 500 out from your normal start distance, do it.

So, your explanation is that I am stupid, can really tell if the guy flew by and now is flying in a different direction, I am also too stupid to check my damage, and the way to avoid someone hitting me from behind after I clearly avoided the colision on my end, is to not come in at 600mph.

Excelent!!!!! The training corps should be very proud to have you.

hammer · « **Reply #53 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:07:21 AM »

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Originally posted by dedalos
So, your explanation is that I am stupid, can really tell if the guy flew by and now is flying in a different direction

Not calling anybody stupid at all. All I was asking is if you were sure not a wing tip touched you at all? Planes moving at a few hundred miles per hour get distance between them pretty quickly. 100 mph moves a plane about 50 yds in 1 sec. A lot of ground gets covered very quickly by an object with a wingspan of 30 - 40 feet. There's a pretty good possibility that two objects with essentialy a diameter of 40 feet moving at 450 ft / sec (300 mph) could have some parts touch in catastrophic or non-catasrophic ways. All the fact that the other plane is now flying a different direction shows is that one or both of you were maneuvering.

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Originally posted by dedalos
I am also too stupid to check my damage

Actually what I said in the explanation I referenced was this: "it tells me that which part of each plane touch is modelled... nothing says every collision is fuselage to fuselage. A wing tip might grab the top of a wing and disable a gun or rip open a fuel tank. I'll bet there are pictures out there of planes that "touched" in the air and did various amounts of damage to each other with one or even both surviving." How that implies you don't know how to check damage is beyond me.

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Originally posted by dedalos
and the way to avoid someone hitting me from behind after I clearly avoided the colision on my end, is to not come in at 600mph

Suggest you re-read what I wrote the first time. Your interpretation is a little off.

Again, the bottom line is what HiTech has stated over and over. The code is written so you only suffer from collisions occurring on your front end. If you believe that is not what is happening, film it and send it in. If there's a bug with the collision model, I have no doubt they would work hard to identify and fix it. To do that, though, they need some hard data to work with.

dedalos · « **Reply #54 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:20:55 AM »

hammer:
Actually it does.... don't collide on your front end. If that means don't come screaming down at 600mph and wait until d100 to take a shot, don't do it ( <-- my personal most common cause of collision!). If it means start your evasive maneuver when a con is an extra 300 or 500 out from your normal start distance, do it.

There, I read it again. Next time I'll ask the guy that dives in while I am in a fight to give me a warning when he is 1.5K out so I can start my evasive maneuver earlyer. It is kind of pointless to try an reason with you though right? You already know what happened, why I did not understand what happened, and what I did wrong,

Iceman24 · « **Reply #55 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:22:22 AM »

Tilt, nice post, that helped me to understand a bit more of about the issue, I'm more a visual learner and your description on the "lag tow" was excellent. thanks buddy

hammer · « **Reply #56 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:33:41 AM »

Actually, that's me screaming in at warp speed and not pulling out early enough. I don't do it often, but enough to annoy me when I do.

"You already know what happened" - nope, that's why I suggested film

"why I did not understand what happened" - nope, it's been explained several times. It's more a matter of acceptance than understanding.

"and what I did wrong" - never said anything wrong was done.

The collision issue is one of code and net lag. Tilt's example of pulling a target is an excellent one. What you see on your computer is the target being pulled by the other guy, not where the other guy is at on his computer. What he sees is your target. As long as he doesn't touch the target you are pulling, no collision for him. As long as you don't touch the target he is pulling (and the target he is pulling doesn't touch you), no collision for you.

hitech · « **Reply #57 on:** February 17, 2006, 10:37:35 AM »

Tilt: I like the tow metaphor also. Even lets you very easly visulize one way collisions.

HiTech

Guppy35 · « **Reply #58 on:** February 17, 2006, 11:38:01 AM »

I had a first the other night. I had the same guy in a Spitfire 16 ram my 38G 3 times in the same flight! I got the #$*^rammed you message every time. I ended up going down the third time but he kept right on driving.

I had a good laugh at that one. He'd come in head on every time and I'd try and duck under him but he'd plow right into me. I kinda figured we both should have been down after the first collision.

Good fun though, and I got a brand new 38G right away anyway

dedalos · « **Reply #59 on:** February 17, 2006, 01:00:59 PM »

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Originally posted by hitech
Tilt: I like the tow metaphor also. Even lets you very easly visulize one way collisions.

HiTech

Just to understand this better. When towing some one, if you don't see a colision on the screen then it did not happen for you. In his FE however, he might/or not have colided with you and if he did he is the only one that gets the damage. Is this right?

If yes, is it also true that if I dont see a colision on my screen, then the only one that could register a colision and take damage would be the other guy.

Or am I still confused?