Why Porking the LW does NOT make HTC $$

[DrDea]

Its Soooooootight.Its SOoooooo right:furious

[straffo]

Nothing like a LW calimero !



Tu reconnait Saw ?

[bozon]

Originally posted by wetrat
It's more than a "fat finger" keeping the 109 flaps from being fixed. If it came out that the flaps on the mustang were wrong, they'd be fixed TONIGHT. 109 flaps have been a known problem for a looooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

There's a difference between a "fix" and a "change". 109 flaps are not bugged, they work as intended so the need no fixing, it's no bug. The deployment speed, which is a subjective issue related to game mechanics, modeling decisions and available data, are perhaps too low and might be changed. I can see why it takes low priority with HTC.

Originally posted by JAWS2003

-Flaps unavailable for axis planes. You can lower gear before you can drop flaps, kinda kills their purpose.

And what do you think is the purpose of flaps? Perhaps the only plane that have plenty of examples of combat flaps usage is the P38. All the others, RAF USAF or LW have a few anaectotes of it being used and usually describing it as exceptional. In all those stories the flaps were deployed when the planes were locked in a slow turning circle, not when going 400 mph. So yes, you can argue if slow means 180 or 200 mph and how far over the pilot manual's numbers can the flaps be used before breaking. With a great lack of data on flaps deployment above limits given in the manual, the manual numbers are what HTC adopted. Again, this is a modeling decision I can understand and the only way to have an un biased modeling - the official figures.

Personally, I'd limit all flaps on all planes to 200 mph max. I hate the way they are used in flight sims.

Originally posted by RedTop

When is the last time ANYONE here actually FLEW a 190A5 or 109G2 , Spit Vb , P51D , LA7 , B-17 , Spit 16 or 8.

I'm afraid that even if someone did actually fly these planes we'll have all the "experts" here claim that the test plane under/over performs because the ailerons were not trimmed right, the engine was fixed by a POW, the fuel was not the uberkrautenfuelstompen type used at that time and the earth is warmer today than it was in 1944 and anyway it's the G14R23FUBAR model and not the G14R24bFUBAR model which was 2 grams lighter since it did not have an ACHTUNG sticker behind the pilot.

Yes, the 109s are unstable at low speeds compared to other planes and that should be looked into. All the rest is crap.

Bozon

[Apar]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Somehow I think the blame lies squarely on the pilot instead of the 109 for being sucky...



ack-ack

Its not only the sucky 109 and 190 pilots that complain Ack Ack.

[Brooke]

Originally posted by bozon
. . . because the ailerons were not trimmed right, the engine was fixed by a POW, the fuel was not the uberkrautenfuelstompen type used at that time and the earth is warmer today than it was in 1944 and anyway it's the G14R23FUBAR model and not the G14R24bFUBAR model which was 2 grams lighter since it did not have an ACHTUNG sticker behind the pilot.

Heh!

[Apar]

The deployment speed, which is a subjective issue related to game mechanics, modeling decisions and available data, are perhaps too low and might be changed. I can see why it takes low priority with HTC.

I can't see why it gets low priority with HTC Bozon, especially considering all the commotion about it

The same goes for the 109 low speed instability and the 190 high speed snap roll tendency (which you have to correct with rudder while losing all E in the process).

These are not single whines from a N00B "LW" wannebe that lost a fight and is sour about it. Its from numerous AH players that dedicated their online time to a certain LW airplane the same as other players dedicate their flying time to P38 and P51. And players should be happy that there are plp that want to fly 109's and 190's otherwise you wouldn't have any to fight with. (must be fun to play a WWII Sim/Game with axis planes only)

These are complains that have been put up for discussion (with HT) for numerous times with data to back it up. What more is needed??

(I'm only clueless why the mentioned problems don't get fixed).

[gatt]

... For the zillion-th time: its not a speed-climb-stall numbers issue. Its a matter of stability at the edge of the flight envelope that makes flying some LW aircraft too much difficult. And this RELATIVELY to some other aircraft, not all of then allied. The Bf110 for example .... have you seen how well does it outloop so many light fighters?

One must be blind not to see how are 190s and 109s after having flown the Pony, the Jug or the Spitfire XVI: these fly on rails even at the very edge of the envelope.

And please stop saying that the 109s are perfect and uber becouse there are (always the same) three or four players who are real aces in them

[ghi]

Originally posted by JB42
Well i dont know the definition of conspiracy theory, heck i probably spelled it wrong, but I do know this:

A) Ta152 - Let's not even go there

B) HTC can't get the 109 flaps code right, but can remodel the 262 to fly tougher than it used to............hmmmmm

C) After numerous posts about the overmodel of the old Spit5, HTC correctly models it, then introduces the Spit8 and 16 and the Seafire III while taking out the G10 and putting in an undermodeled G14 and a K4 that is little more than a fast 109 to run away in.

D) Many historical documents point out the dominence of the A5, it out climbs, out accelerates, out dives and more agile than anything allied pre-1942 (giving up only continual turning radius to most allied planes). Tell me that's modelled accuratly.

E) While it's true there are several questionable FMs for a variety of planes, seems to me that while the LW FMs seem slanted to the undermodelled end of the spectrum, allied FMs seem to slant a bit more frequently to the overmodelled end.

F)DrDea is a tool (sorry, had to throw that in there )

again I'm not sure if its a conspiracy.................bu t it sure smells like one

  Well said,  

But i think the game makes most revenue on North American market, soo the most of the cutomers are happy,

How can you imagine a scenario  in ToD, where Allies get nailed bad?

  Is like those Hollywood"s Happy ending stories, if would end up bad, peoples can't eat their poopcorn, and ask for money back by the end of the movie,
   Yee,  Bruce Willis suposed to play in "Titanic" and save them all

[Timofei]

Originally posted by Apar
The same goes for the 109 low speed instability and the 190 high speed snap roll tendency (which you have to correct with rudder while losing all E in the process).
..
These are complains that have been put up for discussion (with HT) for numerous times with data to back it up. What more is needed??

Has anybody seen data about 109 low speed instability and the 190 high speed snap roll tendency ? I mean actual data ?

A whine is not data. Whines from 20 people in this BB still does not make it "data". The fact that plane A does not have instability is not data that plane B is wrong. Even anecdotal evidence is not data (and there is some opposite anecdotal evidence).

Some data have been presented concerning speeds where flaps can be operated and some G-14 performance issues. And these will be corrected.

[Timofei]

Originally posted by ghi
But i think the game makes most revenue on North American market, soo the most of the cutomers are happy,

That is why Spitfires, La-7, Ki-84 and N1K2 and Me262 are made so good.  As we all know these planes are as American as apple pie. No, wait...

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

People who want to have a FIGHTER plane that has a very high power to weight ratio and is exceptionally nimble and manueverable while still being very stable and forgiving at low speeds are completely ignorant of the laws of physics and aerodynamics. Nimble and maneuverable FIGHTER planes handle that way because they are more directionally unstable. Adding a high power to weight ratio only makes it worse.

I suppose we could make the case that HTC is biased against the P-38:

1. The P-38L is modeled with the Allison -17 engines and NOT the -30 engines, robbing it of over 250HP.

2. Widewing has had a couple of guys we know who flew real P-38's in here, and they say it has a serious lack of elevator authority.

3. The P-38 has autoretract flaps here in AH. It didn't have them, ever.

4. The P-38 stall and spin model does NOT match the test pilot reports by ANY of the Lockheed test pilots. In fact, it isn't even close.

5. The effects of compression are modeled well below 20,000 feet, while no pilot ever interviewed says it was a problem. Most P-38 pilots say you could dive a pre J-25-Lo model from 20,000 feet with impunity, and a post J-25-Lo model from over 25,000 feet easily.

Now, any number of long term hardcore P-38 flyers have argued these points for years. There have been VERY heated disagreements between Dale and several of the aforementioned P-38 flyers over all of the above points. However, I have yet to see anyone of any consequence seriously claim that HTC has some sort of conspiracy going on to handicap the P-38.

The other thing I haven't seen is P-38 flyers continually, repeatedly, and constantly spamming channel 200 all night and every night about the HTC conspiracy against the P-38. I can't say that for the LW contingent. The other night, I listened for TWO HOURS about how the FW 190 was completely porked. The whole time I was FLYING an FW 190 D9 and landing kills.

[Pooface]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
learn to fly, and/or stop basing your theories on the stupid modeling of the IL2 series from maddox games. that set of games is for people who like eye candy but are afraid of ACMs.



my 2c.

bullseye!!!!!!!!



saying the LW is deliberately porked is so f**king stupid. you really gotta be sad and insecure to go saying HT goes out of his way to screw up the LW flight model


there are a few problems that do need to be fixed, and they will im sure. but just listen to yourselves







you see most of the guys that fly LW are american, and they have this idea that because they think that LW stuff was better than everything, that it should have been the same way IRL. wherew do you think these reports of 'superiority' come from? certainly not the allies, they thought the things were pigs. yeah, it comes from the inflated egos of the LW bosses, great source of info that is

[storch]

Originally posted by Apar
In Track Mania Nations the German rides do pretty well too

(and the graphics are awsome!!)

Fix the 109 flaps and the 190 snap roll!!!!

(then i'll might renew my AH account)

what is track mania nations?

[Saintaw]

Originally posted by straffo
Mathman == teh old wise monkey !

[DREDIOCK]

Just on a side note because I see this alot where people will use a single story or two to justify a claim.

One or two combat stories isnt absolute proof of anything.
Its always told from one side and for one. Whoever tells a story about anything tends to embellish that story in their favor. Its human nature to make ourselves look good.

And for another. This person or  may have been able to knock 3 "y" planes out of the sky with his "z" plane on this particular day. But was this a regular occurance? What was the starting situation like? and what was the quality of the pilots he was going up against? Just because he managed to enguage and kill 3 members of that "YYY" Squadron who had a rep of being good, doesnt mean those guys on that particular day  were nothing more then new replacements with little combat experiance.
Particularly as the war went on.
Particularly for the Germans and Japs where they ddint have the luxury of being able to train pilots for extended periods of time.

Its safe to say that as the war went on. the quality of the Axis pilots went down significantly through attrition. While the quality of the allied pilots went up

So you cant go by stories. You have to go by hard data on what the planes could and couldnt do and not by individual combat experiances.

Testimony from pilots that flew can only attest on how THEY flew a particular aircraft and what their impressions of it were.

And those impressions can often conflict as if you read far anough into it you can see in this link I posted




http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/feature/articles/109myths/#notes