Frame 3 Results

[skernsk]

1570 - allied
650 - axis

No rules were broken, but some serious loop holes were used. Some may say abused, others may say utilized, but it is a mute point. What is important is it does not happen again. The job of CM’s aside from designing events is to make them fun and equitable for all involved. Consequently the rules will be changed to avoid this loop hole in the future.

I wrote in the orders that the Allied side must use 4 of the 5 planes available.  And they did use 4 planes.  I don't like how they did it - but I cannot do anything about it.

I feel what has existed up to now was a sort of 'Gentlemen's Agreement' that as a Frame CO you would do your best to gain the victory while staying within the confines of the rules.  The Allied side went well into the Grey area but looking at it from the rules as I laid out - they did nothing wrong.

I do not want to see the event get caught up in rules.  But I think Frame CO's better hire lawyers when they get their objectives as you kind of forced our hands there.

[FDutchmn]

skernsk, thank you for going over this.  I was wondering how this was going to turn out, especially with the other thread in existence.

While I am not sure how many issues were brought up, I agree that we need to do something about this one, while not adding too much to the rules so that we might want to consult a legal council in the end.  

May I suggest that we put a quota on the number of planes used.  I am pretty sure the FSO designers have thought out of some sort of ratio of the planes to be used in the frame.  The downside of this will be the need to come up with a penalty schema if and when this quota is not met.  Another will be the low turn out in numbers may result in not achieving the quota or making the plane set lopsided into one or several types.

Another suggestion is related to the "Gentlemen's agreement".  New comers or a new CO need to be "trained" or "broken" into the spirit or norms of the community.  I thought upon taking a look into the mission orders that I was given for the frame, it seemed to emphasize one part, and the other was neglected.  It raised my eyebrows on what could possibly happen.  The point of the Squad Ops, at least for myself, is to have fun.  It means to enjoy the tention and the intensity of the fighting that goes on while it does.  Of course, I would like this to last as long as possible, but it also means dying gloriously at the hands of your opponent if it so happens.  At least, the opponent was given the opportunity to enjoy the thrill that he righteously deserved, just like I would when I get a kill.  Well, I wouldn't want to make a huge training program into this, but having participated from the beginning of this event, I did understand what and why certain things were designed in a certain way. "Gentlemen's agreement" can only stand if and only if there is a common understanding on how this fun is derived from the event.

oh man, I am starting to write an essay.  Well, I am just thinking out loud...

[ramzey]

Skernsk

arent we had same situation on same map and similar scenario couple years ago with Sunday Squad operations?

I remember big fight and couple closed topics:)
I belive GD stilll remember this one

[MAG1C]

Good comments and suggestions Flying Dutchman so I wont write an essay here.       I'm looking forward to he next FSO.

[Drano]

Skernsk its my opinion that the axis lost these frames purely by virtue of poor planning. The rules were simple enough. You'll remember I mailed you before the first frame ( I was allied CO) because I was concerned about the number of axis attack planes, Ju88s in particular. I was afraid of a Ju88 overcast as there was nothing in the rules to preclude it happening. I was also worried about the Stuka pilots coming back in their second lives in 190F8s which were as lethal attack planes as the Stukas themselves less the big bomb. Didn't look good for me at first.

After some thought I realized that the targets were only worth 100 points apiece and therefore not worth throwing a ton of attack planes, in my case A20s that I could only fly singly or in their case the Ju88s in formations at a cost of 15 points a plane. My strategy in frame 1 was of a strong defense with a limited but potent attack figuring that if the attack mission was carried out and most or good part of of the target destroyed even if I lost all the planes in that mission I'd still be ahead from a strictly points standpoint which was the idea.

What happened in that frame was the axis went exactly the other way in their strategy and focused on a massive attack with Ju88s. My defenders found one of the attacks on Leningrad and anhiliated it. The attack on the refinery complex got thru due to sheer numbers and hit us hard with a lot of Stukas but apparantly both attacks cost about all the planes used including a TON of Ju88s at Leningrad which again at 15 points apiece added up rather quickly. Once all those pilots were removed by their deaths there was really no one around to stop us from cleaning up our targets with the rest of the time available to us in the frame and we did just that. Frames are 2 hours long.

Frame 2 Cheezhd was axis CO and I helped him use a similar strategy to frame 1. And in frame 2 the axis CO made the same exact mistake of using a ton of Ju88s in massive attacks. The result was an even more lopsided allied victory than in frame 1.

Frame 3 it was like being ahead by 20000 points going into final jeopardy. Was like nothing we could possiby do would lose the event for us so we came up with a really simplified plan. Everybody go this way first. I was leading the IL2 group. I called out the Ju88s coming around 62 just as I disco'd.  I joined another IL2 as a gunner. We hit Helsinki unopposed and dropped all the buildings there at our leisure. On our way to RTB we ran into some 109s that chopped us up, ending our frame.

Bottom line---obectives were only worth 100 points apiece, planes worth 10-15 points apiece. Focus of the event by design was on staying alive and killing the enemy's planes. We did that and won big. The allies didn't and it cost them. Was a priorities thing nothing more.

Drano

[daddog]

In the future with a setup like this I would not use the Ju-88’s in the numbers we had, but hind site is 20/20. I suck as a Frame C.O. but they were costly losses.

Good posts Dutch, Drano. CM’s are going over some changes now that they may or may not implement. It is up to those running it now. Ramzey I think I remember that too.

[FiLtH]

Seeing how COs may differ in their approach to these things..some what historical assignments, others analyze the rules and plan strategy based on points, maybe it wouldnt be a bad idea if the COs got together and planned the battle for both sides. Not so much as in giving away the entire plans of each side, but more in making sure there are multiple targets, and appropriate opposition at each target.

[skernsk]

Good points Drano.  You are correct in your assessment of the planning -  I was surprised to see so many 15 point planes going towards the targets and was expecting 4 or 5 groups of bombers with close escort and a strong group of fighters sweeping ahead.  

I was equally surprised with the lack of anything but La5's used in Frame 3.

Once again, no matter how much time spent on it, you guys manage to find a way to plan that was the opposite of what I envisioned:cool:

I think that the low numbers for objectives was a nice little experiment, but ultimately a failure.  Because of the low numbers it was not considered worth attacking or attacking in large numbers.  Same can be said for defending them.

Please keep in mind that if the objectives are worth 300 points or 3000 points all of the objectives must be attacked, and all must be defended.  Without doing so the event sees many players flying circles all night - and in the end we may loose some squads over that.

[sqwiglly]

just so yall know,yes my post level is low(lost my last account)but im not new,ive been flying tods as a co/xo for 4 years now.ive run at least 5.the rules are flawed,allways have been.

we have a gentelmans agrement.its we all take off at the same time,in certain planes,from certain fields,and attack certain targets in a certain amount of time.what more do you need?10 paces?whose to say i cant send everyone down one path?what, just cause you didnt think of it?its not like its a garunteed win?send attackers hit the targets and land,no deaths?you win.but no,you choose to keep going and try to deffened and attack more?so you die?thats just poor leadership.dont think it was fun?then suggest a rule change


i suggest a rule change right now

the cm cant get on country channel and floood the text with questions of weather some thing was hit or not,ignore responses given by the mission leader,then start making threats of penalties and  throwing an entier squad out because hes getting frustrated that he has no idea whats going on or who hes even talking to.if he cant find out if 49 was hit,how the heck can i be expected to know?

i was asked 9 times if 49 was hit by the cm.i asked the squad assigned to it and got no response15 times.and responded on country 30 times.was then told that wasnt good enough.it pulled me away from the end of my plan and changed the outcome.i had to put an officer in charge so i could go get talked down to by my cm in the tower.


i understand that the cm was just trying to help,but he had an affect on how the mission was run.i called off my final attack because of him.write or wrong,he stopped it.theres a reson penalties are there,and missions should be allowed to run there course.let the chips fall where they may,sort it out later.who knows ,maybee i send everyone in on low fuel to hit 49 and we get penalized,get hit by 109's in force and die on the way home?coulda changed the outcome drastickly.cm should have stayed out of it,and he coulda kept his attitude to himself as well.

whatever,its just a game.but if you play a game with vauge rules,dont get mad when someone plays in a way you didnt expect.

1570 - allied
650 - axis

[sqwiglly]

p.s.
i used the plane type loophole about 1 year ago and you guys changed the rules to say"4 0f the 5 planes must be flown in squad strength"seemed to cover it but scince then the rule has gone away from the list.i read the rules and use them to my best advantage.as a leader in a game its the foundation of planning.if you leave them open....well

1570 - allied
650 - axis

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by sqwiglly
i suggest a rule change right now

the cm cant get on country channel and floood the text with questions of weather some thing was hit or not,ignore responses given by the mission leader,then start making threats of penalties and  throwing an entier squad out because hes getting frustrated that he has no idea whats going on or who hes even talking to.if he cant find out if 49 was hit,how the heck can i be expected to know?

i was asked 9 times if 49 was hit by the cm.i asked the squad assigned to it and got no response15 times.and responded on country 30 times.was then told that wasnt good enough.it pulled me away from the end of my plan and changed the outcome.i had to put an officer in charge so i could go get talked down to by my cm in the tower.


i understand that the cm was just trying to help,but he had an affect on how the mission was run.i called off my final attack because of him.write or wrong,he stopped it.theres a reson penalties are there,and missions should be allowed to run there course.let the chips fall where they may,sort it out later.who knows ,maybee i send everyone in on low fuel to hit 49 and we get penalized,get hit by 109's in force and die on the way home?coulda changed the outcome drastickly.cm should have stayed out of it,and he coulda kept his attitude to himself as well.

whatever,its just a game.but if you play a game with vauge rules,dont get mad when someone plays in a way you didnt expect.

1570 - allied
650 - axis

sqwiglly, I wouldn't characterize the conversation between you and the CM as the way you put it, although if it were me, I wouldn't answered the way you did.  However, you are right that this could have been sorted later, of which it should be because scoring comes after deliberations after the frame is over.  

On the other hand, somehow, I still fail to see why what the CM did made you call off an attack.

Please excuse the confusion with my remark about a new CO. I was certainly not referring about you, but rather that on general terms, it does help to have some sort of programs for new comers to become familiar with how certain things are done, especially that AH is a long running game, and new comers should be made feel welcome to community as well. My post was just point toward that fact.

Yes, you are right, it's just a game.  You made your point about the loophole and righteously it is getting the attention that it deserves.  It will in the end be better for the Squad Ops in the end.

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by sqwiglly
p.s.
i used the plane type loophole about 1 year ago and you guys changed the rules to say"4 0f the 5 planes must be flown in squad strength"seemed to cover it but scince then the rule has gone away from the list.i read the rules and use them to my best advantage.as a leader in a game its the foundation of planning.if you leave them open....well

1570 - allied
650 - axis

oh man... Sqwiglly, do us a favor, please don't view this as "you guys changed...", it was us, including you.

[sqwiglly]

anyone who doubts the effect the cm had on me and the mission,ill send you the tape.it has me trying despratly to respond to the cm's questions with no reply,countrymen responding the same thing i just said to him,with no response, yet more threats of penalties,followed by me removing myself as leader to go find him in the tower to get it through to him what i was trying to on text,only to get torn a new one verbaly.the attack was called off because i couldnt get him to respond to me.yes we had not hit 49 so we should not have.but i didnt know that and niether did he.so threats of penalties,over and over,were out of line.unless hes my boss,he should have stayed out of it,and not threatened to throw my squad out.nor interfeared with the outcome of the battle.

wanna see the tape?send me an email ill send it to ya

steelriverstudios@hotmail.com

[sqwiglly]

oh man... Sqwiglly, do us a favor, please don't view this as "you guys changed...", it was us, including you

not shure what this means?

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by sqwiglly
anyone who doubts the effect the cm had on me and the mission,ill send you the tape.it has me trying despratly to respond to the cm's questions with no reply,countrymen responding the same thing i just said to him,with no response, yet more treats of penalties,followed by me removing myself as leader to go find him in the tower to get it through to him what i was trying to on text,only to get torn a new one verbaly.the attack was called off because i couldnt get him to respond to me.yes we had not hit 49 so we should not have.but i didnt know that and niether did he.so threats of penalties,over and over,were out of line.unless hes my boss,he should have stayed out of it,and not threatened to throw my squad out.nor interfeared with the outcome of the battle.

wanna see the tape?send me an email ill send it to ya

steelriverstudios@hotmail.com

Sqwiglly, I was there next to you.  I wouldn't call that a threat.  Or let's put it this way, we shouldn't interpret that as a threat.  As you said, we should let the chips fall and deal with it later.  You did what you did, and you held your course in doing so.  So,  I am not asking you to prove to me anything.  I will believe you that you had difficulties dealing with the situation.   You made your position known, now I believe it is up to the CM team to determine what is necessary to be done.