Author Topic: N. texas shooters  (Read 1883 times)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #105 on: February 25, 2006, 09:48:33 AM »
This is dumb... a 223 rem is a lousy deer cartridge.  

Can it kill? sure.     When I was starving I killed several bigger deer with a 22 lr out of a High standard pistol with 6" barrel   people are killed with 22lr all the time.... on deer fell at about 30 yards fell like he was hit with a 20mm  another thrashed aound for a bit and 2 others ran off and probly died ugly...  I woulda tracked em but I would risk jail... yeah... I know...real slob but I was literaly starving and so was my wife at the time.  

Would I do it a again?   Have you ever been hungry?  Of course I would.  

I am not a hunter...never was..  If I can afford it (and I have so far since those days) I will do my hunting at the supermarket.

When I have hunted (some wild boar as a backup and some deer hunting to appease freinds and some pheasant stuff).....  I take enough gun.

I see no reason to take a puny 223 when you can buy a surplus mauser or nagant or whatever for a few bucks.

As for reloading and the money.... silly...  I can buy either small rifle or large rifle primers in bulk for the same price essentialy..

Imr powder and h335 in 8 lb kegs... the Imr is cheaper... you use twice as much of it say in a 308 or even 243 as the 223 but it isn't much money wise..

bullets?  bulk soft point .30 cal are cheaper than specialty hunting 22 bullets.... most 22 bullets are either varmit or military or target... only the military btfmj ones are really cheap.

in the end?  you might load 223 hunting rounds for 14 cents apiece and .308 ones for 17 cents apiece.   hardly worth getting excited about.

I see no reason to hunt anything other than varmits or paper targets with a 223 unless it is the only gun you own.   For small people and children a .243 would be much better without much more recoil.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #106 on: February 25, 2006, 09:51:02 AM »
toad... a .357 or even 44 mag is good for hunting deer.... at close range.  At close range they seem to drop deer and boar better than even high powered rifles but.... our past about 50 yard they start to become an iffy proposition...

I would hope that any handgun hunter would stick to relatively close range shots.

lazs

Offline fartwinkle

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« Reply #107 on: February 25, 2006, 11:12:24 AM »
This is a good article.


Centerfire .22s For Big Game
They're legal for deer in many states, but should we use them?
By Craig Boddington

Boddington shot this axis deer on the Y.O. Ranch with a Kimber .223. The bullet was a 60-grain Bear Claw and performed perfectly. He cautions, however, that shot placement must be very precise to take game this size with a .22 centerfire.

It was Walter Dalrymple Maitland "Karamoja" Bell who hypothesized that "10 grains in the right place" would do a whole lot more than many times that in the wrong place. He was, of course, absolutely and irrefutably correct. Neither bullet weight, nor bullet energy, velocity or performance in any combination can supplant shot placement.

Smallbore fans always cite Bell because he was the best-known (and possibly most successful) of the smallbore gurus. He used relatively light calibers for most of the 1,000-plus elephants he shot in the early years of this century: 7x57, .303 British, .318 Westley Richards.

However, comparing what we can do to what Bell did is sort of like comparing what we can do with golf clubs against what Tiger Woods does with them. Bell was an extraordinary marksman. He was also a student of animal anatomy. After some early failures he dissected and studied elephant skulls until he understood--and could visualize from any angle--exactly where the brain lay. Whenever you cite Bell, understand that he was not banking on bullet performance and he cared not a whit for foot-pounds. He shot only solids ("The barrel of my .275 Rigby has never been polluted by a softnosed bullet!"), and if the solid reached the brain he had his elephant. And this didn't always work; he expected a failure rate--a wounded animal--due to poor aim or the bullet's failure to hold its line.

continue article
 
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That was in another century. We cannot accept a failure rate today. With that, let's consider .22 centerfires for deer. The Bell analogy isn't out in left field. Taking a big buck with a .22 is only slightly less optimistic than taking an elephant with a 7x57. Yes, you can do it, but you better know how.

Most states set some kind of restriction on legal arms for deer hunting. The most common, I think, is 6mm. I fervently believe this is the most sensible minimum--not all of us are Karamoja Bell. A smaller number of states allow .22 centerfires and a couple allow "any centerfire," and a .17 Rem. is perfectly legal. I have actually seen a substantial whitetail flattened by a .17 Rem. It was a neck shot, no surprise, but I don't recommend a 25-grain bullet at 4,000 fps for any deer hunting under any circumstances.

The .22s are a different story. They can be used effectively on deer. Nothing said herein is meant to suggest that I condone flaunting game laws. If a .22 is not legal in your area, don't use one. Since they are legal in a number of states, many hunters are going to use them, so this is a worthwhile discussion.
Left to right: .222 Rem., .223 Rem., .22-250 Rem., .220 Swift. If you're using a .22 centerfire for deer, these are among the choices that make the most sense.

There are three things you need to be concerned about: bullet performance, bullet energy, and shot placement (not necessarily in that order).

Bullet Performance
If Bell were to use his old .22 Savage Hi-Power on kudu, he would prefer to load it with a full-metal-jacket bullet. Then he would pierce the brain or skewer the heart with it. In the former case he'd walk up and collect his meat, in the latter he'd follow the tracks a little distance first. We can't do it his way, since non-expanding bullets are illegal for big game in every jurisdiction I'm aware of. We must pollute our barrels with softnosed bullets. If you're bent on using a .22, you must choose your bullet with great care.

Most .22 bullets are intended as varmint bullets; thin-jacketed and very frangible so they come unglued at the slightest resistance. This is just what you don't want in a big-game bullet. You want expansion, sure, because it wrecks the vitals, but you must get the bullet into the vitals and that takes penetration.
.22 Centerfire Heavy-Bullet Loads
     Velocity (fps)/Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge    Bullet Weight    Muzzle    100 yds.    200 yds.    300 yds.
.222 Remington    62 gr.    2,887
1,148    2,457
831    2,067
588    1,716
405
.223 Rem.    64 gr.    3, 020
1,296    2,656
1,003    2,320
765    2,009
574
.22-250    60 gr.    3,600
1,727    3,195
1,360    2,826
1,064    2,484
823
.220 Swift    60 gr.    3,600
1,727    3,195
1,360    2,826
1,064    2,484
823
By Comparison
.243 Win.    100 gr.    2,960
1,945    2,697
1,615    2,449
1,332    2,215
1,089
.30-30    150 gr.    2,390
1,902    1,973
1,296    1,605
858    1,303
565
 

I admit I have taken a number of deer with a .22-250 and standard 55-grain loads. The results can be spectacular. The problem is, the shots that can be taken are extremely limited. So long as you know that, and you're Karamoja for a day, it's okay. It is much better, however, to select bullets designed for the purpose. The good news is that there are several excellent .22-caliber bullets intended for use on larger game. They hold together, penetrate, and greatly expand the range of shots you can safely take.

Most of these bullets are very heavy-for-caliber, 60 grains and more, which also increases penetrating abilities. But be careful: A lot of heavy-for-caliber bullets are match bullets, either hollowpoint or full-metal-jacket, so make sure you select hunting bullets. I have the most experience with the 60-grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, a bullet that expands, holds together and penetrates. I've used it with perfect results in my .223s on game up to axis deer in size. There is a good .22-caliber Barnes X as well, and brand-new 60-grain Nosler Partition, which should be a wonderful deer bullet as .22s go.

Bullet Energy
Since I'm not Karamoja Bell, I can't overlook the basic requirements of bullet energy. No one can say how much, but Colonel Townsend Whelen was an awfully smart man, and I'm willing to accept his theory of 1,000 ft-lbs. at the game. This for small to medium-sized deer. Legal or not, in terms of energy this rules out the .17 Rem., .22 Hornet and .218 Bee; none of which offer 1,000 ft-lbs. at the muzzle. I've seen deer stoned by the .22 Hornet and the .17. Shot placement counts above all, but it's too risky a business for me and I don't want a built-in failure rate.

The accompanying table shows that none of the .22 centerfires are long on energy. What there is drops off very quickly because of the light bullets, so the .22 centerfires are not long-range tools for deer. The .222 doesn't even make 100 yards; the .223 drops below 1,000 ft-lbs. just past 100 yards; the .22-250 and .220 Swift make it to 200 yards just barely. In other words, the fastest and flattest of the .22s have about the same effective range on deer as the .30-30.

Shot Placement
Although I know how to do it and have done it, I am not by nature a head/neck shooter. It's just too risky. The slightest shooter error or the slightest last-minute movement on the part of the animal, and you've inflicted a horrible wound on an animal you may or may not be able to recover. I freely admit that Karamoja Bell was a better man than I'll ever be. So I avoid the head/neck shot, even with super-accurate .22s, unless the range is quite close, the animal is unaware and I'm perfectly steady. It's so ingrained in me to go for the heart/lung shot that I usually don't even think otherwise, even if the conditions are right. There's a difference between the heart shot and lung shot. With a .22 it's a big difference.

To reach the heart from broadside you have to go through the shoulder. To do this with a .22, you must be extremely certain of your bullet. You can do it with the bullets I named and there are others that will also work. But you'd better be certain. The lung shot, right behind the shoulder and avoiding heavy bone, is much more certain and a whole lot safer.

There are also innumerable angles from which the heart and lungs can be reached-but not with a .22. If you decide to use the smallbores for deer, you must make a commitment to be extremely picky not only about shot placement, but also the acceptable shot presentation. Of course, there are deer and then there are deer. A 100-pound doe or yearling buck is not the same animal as a 300-pound northern buck; you have a bit more latitude in the shots you can take with the former. Because of this, in my mind the .22 centerfires are really not suited for the larger deer, nor for trophy buck hunting anywhere. Rather, they are their best when venison is the main goal, and with absolute priority given to shot placement and presentation. Used in this fashion, the .22 centerfires will take down deer like lightning striking. And somewhere Karamoja Bell will be smiling.

Offline FX1

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« Reply #108 on: February 25, 2006, 11:20:35 AM »
Bla Bla i have killed so many deer with the .222 its not funny. Its my meat gun, one pop in the head our neck next stop is the grill. This year i shot a 385 pound hog with that gun in the face and it didnt move from the spot. If you do use a .223 neck and head shots only.

Record this year with the .222 was 65 deer taken off the mexico ranch. Me and my brother were doing alittle cleaning this year. Spikes does and small 6's and 8's. I have no idea the amount of pigs but in one day i shot 32.

I do have a 300 win mag in the high rack at all times.

Offline fartwinkle

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« Reply #109 on: February 25, 2006, 11:25:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FX1
Bla Bla i have killed so many deer with the .222 its not funny. Its my meat gun, one pop in the head our neck next stop is the grill. This year i shot a 385 pound hog with that gun in the face and it didnt move from the spot. If you do use a .223 neck and head shots only.

Record this year with the .222 was 65 deer taken off the mexico ranch. Me and my brother were doing alittle cleaning this year. Spikes does and small 6's and 8's. I have no idea the amount of pigs but in one day i shot 32.

I do have a 300 win mag in the high rack at all times.



Thank you .
This all Im saying folks its up to the hunter but for me i like the 223 on anything
white tail or smaller And I have never lost one yet.
But it really is up to the hunter on what he wants to use.

Offline FX1

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« Reply #110 on: February 25, 2006, 11:26:39 AM »
Btw made a 385 shot with the .222 this year. I bought a savage 22.250 so i can take those 500 long bombs next year. Our little dove boys love to bring home the meat for their family so i have no problem shooting them all. This place in mexico is 10000 and is going to be high fence so all the ugly deer must go.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #111 on: February 25, 2006, 06:06:05 PM »
:rofl

From your own article.. AGAIN:

Quote
The accompanying table shows that none of the .22 centerfires are long on energy. What there is drops off very quickly because of the light bullets, so the .22 centerfires are not long-range tools for deer. The .222 doesn't even make 100 yards; the .223 drops below 1,000 ft-lbs. just past 100 yards; the .22-250 and .220 Swift make it to 200 yards just barely. In other words, the fastest and flattest of the .22s have about the same effective range on deer as the .30-30.[/b]


Hardly "fine" whitetail cartridges.... by the admission of the article YOU posted.
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Offline fartwinkle

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« Reply #112 on: February 25, 2006, 06:16:50 PM »
You are trying to manufacture an argument where there isnt one.
I am simply saying that the 223 if fine for me or anyone else who feels they can make a clean shot.
Now if you dont wish to use a 223 thats fine use what you wish.
And as in the articles i linked to there are more than I who use the 223 on whitetails just fine.
And as you have pointed out there are those who feel it is too small.
You know opnions are like areholes everyone has one.

But as long as it remains legal in TX to hunt whitetail with a 223 I will continue to do so as I enjoy the challenge
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 06:33:47 PM by fartwinkle »

Offline FX1

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« Reply #113 on: February 25, 2006, 07:12:24 PM »
I would not go big buck hunting with a .223 but the perfect shot will bring anything dow in North America. Thirty cal our larger for trophy and .22 for meat is my deal. I have been around when some guys have hit a buck at 150 with a 7mm mag and we never did find it. No caliber will ever replace a good shot

Offline Toad

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« Reply #114 on: February 25, 2006, 09:53:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fartwinkle
I am simply saying that the 223 if fine for me or anyone else who feels they can make a clean shot.


That's not the statement you made at the beginning and even that back pedal is not completely correct.

We're ploughing old ground. You even post the same articles that counter your own intial statements.

The .223 REM is a marginal deer cartridge. Period.

IF you shoot small whitetail, at short range, and are very careful with your shot placement it will work. That surely doesn't make it a "fine" whitetail cartridge.

Shot placement is important with any deer cartridge. It is critical with any .22 CF. Every article you've posted says the same thing and anyone with a lick of common sense and any deer hunting experience at all knows it without reading those articles.

Small deer, short range, extremely careful shot placement.

Those are NOT the characteristics of a "fine" whitetail cartridge. They're the charateristics of a minimally adequate deer cartridge, particularly when viewed within the spectrum of whitetail hunting across the US.

Use it all you like, I don't care a whit. It'll work if you stay within its rather significant limitations.

But to suggest it to a new starting-out whitetail hunter as a "fine" whitetail cartridge is just plain BS.

And that's what you were doing, despite your current backpedaling.
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #115 on: February 25, 2006, 11:06:53 PM »
If you want a challenge hunting, go either black powder, bow or handgun. Stay within the limitations of the cartridge or the bow.
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Offline GreenCloud

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« Reply #116 on: February 26, 2006, 07:54:00 PM »
just bought over 2,100 rounds of .308 for $.o68 cents around..

woooooo woooooooooooooo


i look forward to zombie time

Offline Toad

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« Reply #117 on: February 26, 2006, 08:22:22 PM »
GC, got the Glock Mags.. Thanks!
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #118 on: February 26, 2006, 09:25:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GreenCloud
just bought over 2,100 rounds of .308 for $.o68 cents around..

woooooo woooooooooooooo


i look forward to zombie time


LOL... I got 6 cans of the river-bottom indian too and I'm happy as a clam. The cans looked awful; dingy, muddy & just as ugly as sin but when I opened 'em up the ammo was all bright and clean. The stuff shoots great; best ammo buy I ever made.

Thanks for the tip, Green Cloud!

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Offline fartwinkle

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« Reply #119 on: February 26, 2006, 10:27:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
That's not the statement you made at the beginning and even that back pedal is not completely correct.

We're ploughing old ground. You even post the same articles that counter your own intial statements.

The .223 REM is a marginal deer cartridge. Period.

IF you shoot small whitetail, at short range, and are very careful with your shot placement it will work. That surely doesn't make it a "fine" whitetail cartridge.

Shot placement is important with any deer cartridge. It is critical with any .22 CF. Every article you've posted says the same thing and anyone with a lick of common sense and any deer hunting experience at all knows it without reading those articles.

Small deer, short range, extremely careful shot placement.

Those are NOT the characteristics of a "fine" whitetail cartridge. They're the charateristics of a minimally adequate deer cartridge, particularly when viewed within the spectrum of whitetail hunting across the US.

Use it all you like, I don't care a whit. It'll work if you stay within its rather significant limitations.

But to suggest it to a new starting-out whitetail hunter as a "fine" whitetail cartridge is just plain BS.

And that's what you were doing, despite your current backpedaling.



Like i said you just love to argue ande Im done with you.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 11:06:35 PM by fartwinkle »