Supreme court to re-visit late term abortion ban

[weaselsan]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Why not let them kill children immediately after they're born? I guess Gov't has no business what happens then too? I mean, we're only talking a womb that is paper thin....

Your close...late term abortion allows for killing the baby all the way to the day of delivery. The reason there was no provision for the health of the mother is because congress heard testimony from many doctors that stated it would not be necessary to save the mothers life.

[GtoRA2]

From the site that chart came from

But what about coat hanger abortions?

Your authors have lectured nationwide on abortion on an average of one city a week for almost three decades. We frequently ask the audience to provide documented proof of a self-induced coat hanger abortion. In all this time no one has given us a single case. It may well be — there never were any coat hanger abortions.

I find that very interesting. Anyone ever seen proof?

[Delirium]

In regards to that graph above-

Btw, that HUGE drop in abortion complications in 1950 was a direct result of the oral contraceptive being developed.

[GtoRA2]

Still 1300 a year is nothing.



I bet more people die from plastic surgery complications.

[lasersailor184]

Interesting.  Which brings up the next topic.


If it's a heinous act, and it's illegallized, but you know it's going to be done anyway, should it then be legalized?

[Sandman]

The best argument in favor of criminalizing abortion.

[Silat]

Originally posted by Sandman
The best argument in favor of criminalizing abortion.

Best argument for abortion: These boards:)

[Silat]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
 How would you feel if you were a father where your wife decided to leave you, and not only that, she's decided to abort the 6 month old fetus inside her by letting a doctor puncture the childs' brain and suck out it out, then dismember the child and remove it piece by piece. How would you feel then? Still "her" right?

 

Well Rip according to your scary scenario I guess I could catch her before she has the abortion then take her to the fanatical Chrisitian Center for Life and they could put her in a cell. Then strap her down and feed her intravenously till she had the baby.
Actually Rip its her body. Being married to me doesnt give me the right to control her body.. Get it?

[Seagoon]

Hi Sandy,

Originally posted by Sandman
What exactly do you think a "late term" abortion is?

You know, no one really ever did give you an answer to your question, and actually establishing what we are discussing might be worthwhile.

A late term abortion or a partial-birth abortion is usually referred to in the Medical community as a ID&X or "Intact Dilation and Extraction". The jury is out on how many of these are actually performed in the USA yearly, but in NJ well over a thousand are performed annually - the majority being (in that state) illegal late term elective abortions. There are actually very few medical circumstances (other than the psychological assessment that the mother is suicidal) where an ID&X is required. In the case of late term fetal death, it is usally preferable to induce a miscarriage as ID&X can cause significant cervical problems (including an incompetent cervix).

Here is a description of the full proceedure given by Abortion doctor, Martin Haskell in a paper entitled "Second Trimester Abortion from Every Angle" presented by the National Abortion Foundation. An accurate rollover drawing of the procedure (medically accurate but not as graphic as the real event of course) follows.

Introduction

The surgical method described in this paper differs from classic D&E in that it does not rely upon dismemberment to remove the fetus. Nor are inductions or infusions used to expel the intact fetus.

Rather, the surgeon grasps and removes a nearly intact fetus through an adequately dilated cervix. The author has coined the term Dilation and Extraction or D&X to distinguish it from dismemberment-type D&E's.

This procedure can be performed in a properly equipped physician's office under local anesthesia. It can be used successfully in patients 20-26 weeks in pregnancy.

The author has performed over 700 of these procedures with a low rate of complications.

Background

D&E evolved as an alternative to induction or instillation methods for second trimester abortion in the mid 1970's. This happened in part because of lack of hospital facilities allowing second trimester abortions in some geographic areas, in part because surgeons needed a `right now' solution to complete suction abortions inadvertently started in the second trimester and in part to provide a means of early second trimester abortion to avoid necessary delays for instillation methods. 1

The North Carolina Conference in 1978 established D&E as the preferred method for early second trimester abortions in the U.S. 2 , 3 , 4

Footnotes at end of article.

Classic D&E is accomplished by dismembering the fetus inside the uterus with instruments and removing the pieces through an adequately dilated cervix. 5

However, most surgeons find dismemberment at twenty weeks and beyond to be difficult due to the toughness of fetal tissues at this stage of development. Consequently, most late second trimester abortions are performed by an induction method. 6 , 7 , 8

Two techniques of late second trimester D&E's have been described at previous NAF meetings. The first relies on sterile urea intra-amniotic infusion to cause fetal demise and lysis (or softening) of fetal tissues prior to surgery. 9

The second technique is to rupture the membranes 24 hours prior to surgery and cut the umbilical cord. Fetal death and ensuing autolysis soften the tissues. There are attendant risks of infection with this method.

In summary, approaches to late second trimester D&E's rely upon some means to induce early fetal demise to soften the fetal tissues making dismemberment easier.

Patient Selection

The author routinely performs this procedure on all patients 20 through 24 weeks LMP with certain exceptions. The author performs the procedure on selected patients 25 through 26 weeks LMP.

The author refers for induction patients falling into the following categories: previous C-section over 22 weeks; obese patients (more than 20 pounds over large frame ideal weight); twin pregnancy over 21 weeks; patients 26 weeks and over.

Description of Dilation and Extraction Method

Dilation and extraction takes over three days. In a nutshell, D&X can be described as follows: dilation; more dilation; real-time ultrasound visualization; version (as needed); intact extraction; fetal skull decompression; removal; clean-up; recovery.

Day 1--Dilation

The patient is evaluated with an ultrasound, hemoglobin and Rh. Hadlock scales are used to interpret all ultrasound measurements.

In the operating room, the cervix is prepped, anesthetized and dilated to 9-11 mm. Five, six or seven large Dilapan hydroscopic dilators are placed in the cervix. The patient goes home or to a motel overnight.

Day 2--Dilation

The patient returns to the operating room where the previous day's Dilapan are removed. The cervix is scrubbed and anesthetized. Between 15 and 25 Dilapan are placed in the cervical canal. The patient returns home or to a motel overnight.

Day 3--The Operation

The patient returns to the operating room where the previous day's Dilapan are removed. The surgical assistant administers 10 IU Pitocin intramuscularly. The cervix is scrubbed, anesthetized and grasped with a tenaculum. The membranes are ruptured, if they are not already.

The surgical assistant places an ultrasound probe on the patient's abdomen and scans the fetus, locating the lower extremities. This scan provides the surgeon information about the orientation of the fetus and approximate location of the lower extremities. The transducer is then held in position over the lower extremities.

The surgeon introduces a large grasping forcep, such as a Bierer or Hern, through the vaginal and cervical canals into the corpus of the uterus. Based upon his knowledge of fetal orientation, he moves the tip of the instrument carefully towards the fetal lower extremities. When the instrument appears on the sonogram screen, the surgeon is able to open and close its jaws to firmly and reliably grasp a lower extremity. The surgeon then applies firm traction to the instrument causing a version of the fetus (if necessary) and pulls the extremity into the vagina.

By observing the movement of the lower extremity and version of the fetus on the ultrasound screen, the surgeon is assured that his instrument has not inappropriately grasped a maternal structure.

With a lower extremity in the vagina, the surgeon uses his fingers to deliver the opposite lower extremity, then the torso, the shoulders and the upper extremities.

The skull lodges at the internal cervical os. Usually there is not enough dilation for it to pass through. The fetus is oriented dorsum or spine up.

At this point, the right-handed surgeon slides the fingers of the left had along the back of the fetus and `hooks' the shoulders of the fetus with the index and ring fingers (palm down). Next he slides the tip of the middle finger along the spine towards the skull while applying traction to the shoulders and lower extremities. The middle finger lifts and pushes the anterior cervical lip out of the way.

While maintaining this tension, lifting the cervix and applying traction to the shoulders with the fingers of the left hand, the surgeon takes a pair of blunt curved Metzenbaum scissors in the right hand. He carefully advances the tip, curved down, along the spine and under his middle finger until he feels it contact the base of the skull under the tip of his middle finger.

Reassessing proper placement of the closed scissors tip and safe elevation of the cervix, the surgeon then forces the scissors into the base of the skull or into the foramen magnum. Having safely entered the skull, he spreads the scissors to enlarge the opening.

The surgeon removes the scissors and introduces a suction catheter into this hole and evacuates the skull contents. With the catheter still in place, he applies traction to the fetus, removing it completely from the patient.

The surgeon finally removes the placenta with forceps and scrapes the uterine walls with a large Evans and a 14 mm suction curette. The procedure ends.

The following illustrations have been certified as an accurate portrayal of the above proceedure here & Here

[Silat]

Originally posted by Seagoon
The jury is out on how many of these are actually performed in the USA yearly, but in NJ well over a thousand are performed annually - the majority being (in that state) illegal late term elective abortions.  

The latest tactic of the far right has been to bring attention to what they label the "partial birth abortion." The term "partial birth abortion" is not a term that has been used by anyone other than the people who opposed abortion. It was created to inflame and draw attention to their cause. It is not a medical term. The correct term is an Intact D&E or Intact Dilation & Evacuation (or D&X for Dilation and Extraction). These fanatics (Mostly men) have lobbied Congress and the state legislators to ban this procedure from being performed. They use inflammatory descriptions of a procedure and gruesome pictures. They have said that the fetus is yanked out of the mother and stabbed with scissors which is an incorrect description. The pro-choice side disagrees almost entirely.
According to the abortion industry’s own figures, partial birth abortions number between 2,000 and 5,000 per year.
This is the first time legislators have been confronted with a demand from laypeople to ban a specific medical procedure.\\

The Bible
Abortion, infanticide and child abandonment were permitted under Roman law at the time of Jesus. Abortion is never mentioned in the Bible, despite the fact that it has been practiced throughout recorded human history. However, a number of Bible passages may be relevant. These verses and others are often cited as evidence that a fetus is truly a living human being, and deserving the same protection:

At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. (NIV, Luke 1:39-44)

Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (NAS, Jeremiah 1:4-5)

I will say to God: ... "Your hands shaped me and made me. Will you now turn and destroy me? Remember that you molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? (NIV, Job 10:2, 8-9)

Several other verses are cited as evidence that a fetus is not a living being. Life is equated with breath throughout the Bible, and this passage seems to suggest that a person is not living until he or she takes a first breath after birth:

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. (NIV, Genesis 2:7)

This passage from Exodus seems to say that causing death to a fetus is not as serious a crime as causing death to a person:

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (NAS, Exodus 21:22-24)

A literal translation of the Hebrew of this passage would be "cause her offspring to be brought forth." It is commonly thought that a miscarriage was meant, but it could mean an early birth where the child survived. Thus, this passage is cited both for and against abortion.

The Bible gives direct guidance on many, many topics, but not on abortion. None of the passages above (nor the many others often cited) were originally intended as statements about abortion, so any conclusions drawn from them represent opinions rather than Biblical evidence.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Interesting.  Which brings up the next topic.


If it's a heinous act, and it's illegallized, but you know it's going to be done anyway, should it then be legalized?

If rape of a child is a heinous act, and its illegal, but you know its gonna be done, should it be legalized?

With all due respect, silly straw horse, Sailor.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Silat
The latest tactic of the far right has been to bring attention to what they label the "partial birth abortion." The term "partial birth abortion" is not a term that has been used by anyone other than the people who opposed abortion.  

B.S. Its a legal term.

The bill bans "partial-birth abortion," and it legally defines a partial-birth abortion as any abortion in which the baby is delivered "past the [baby's] navel . . . outside the body of the mother," OR "in the case of head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother," BEFORE being terminated.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
B.S. Its a legal term.

The bill bans "partial-birth abortion," and it legally defines a partial-birth abortion as any abortion in which the baby is delivered "past the [baby's] navel . . . outside the body of the mother," OR "in the case of head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother," BEFORE being terminated.

Outstandingly circular.

Pro-life movement coins a term and gets it stuck in a legal document, now it is a legal term.  For crying at loud Rip, at least pretend you want an honest, rational debate on the topic.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Thrawn
Outstandingly circular.

Pro-life movement coins a term and gets it stuck in a legal document, now it is a legal term.  For crying at loud Rip, at least pretend you want an honest, rational debate on the topic.

Are you argueing that the baby is not outside the womb when this procedure is performed? Do you want to call it something that makes it seem like an object rather than a breathing, living human being?  How about "Not Alive Yet Fetus"? WIll that help your conscious?

[lazs2]

sandie... I read that article and agree with it.  Do you?

lazs