Author Topic: History of religion  (Read 1886 times)

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2006, 07:00:53 AM »
Yep unbelievable how accurately they nailed the point! :aok
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline indy007

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« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2006, 10:05:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan

edit: indy, thats not the real buddha,  hes more like this:

Gotta remember, buddha fasted with those indian holyman that live in the hills in isolation. Incidentally there is some traditional indian knowledge that says jesus travelled to india and learn't magic tricks from indian shamen.


I have friends that confuse Buddha with Vishnu. No, I'm not joking. That's why I use happy Buddha pictures :)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2006, 10:15:34 AM »
ripley... the human right to be able to defend yourself and others is not a religion to me but a right and a human responsibility.   It is worth fighting to protect.  

My point is that many who view religion as evil look at socialism as the true religion... in modern times... socialism has killed one hell of a lot more people than christianity say.   what socialism doesn't kill it destroys... it destroys peoples human rights.

Those who would make fun of people worshiping a supreme being seem odd to me.  While I find no personal pull to worship any of oreganized religions dieties...  I am bright enough to admit that I can't prove they are wrong.

Those who make fun of religion and claim to be athiests seem frightened and  illogical to me.

some do it perhaps out of fear but others seem to do it in order to fit in with groups they admire... some... in order to justify what they do and strike back at those who would condem their acts.... none of those reasons is compelling to me or logical.

I am content to allow people to believe whatever they want so long as they don't force it on me.   I feel that silat posting that cartoon and his susequent posts, are as much "in my face" as the witness at my door on saturday morning.   both obnoxious and probly wrong.

lazs

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2006, 01:28:26 PM »
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I am content to allow people to believe whatever they want so long as they don't force it on me.


Well wasn't that quite the cartoons point? Even if you're content, there are a million others who are more than willing to force their views on you.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Timofei

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« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2006, 01:39:07 PM »

 
Proverbs 15:17 "Better is a dinner of herbs where love is, than a stalled ox and hatred herewith."

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2006, 08:47:20 PM »
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
You cannot always equate Christians with Christianity, nor can you always equate Moslems with Islam.  People are fallible and always will be.  There will always be someone who gets into a position of power, be it religious or secular, and abuses that power to do things that have nothing to do with the source of it.


and this is the standard religious cop-out most of us non-religious people are sick of.

a priest rips off his parish.... well he wasn't a real christian
a muslim suicide bomber takes out a bus in israel... well real muslims believe in peace so he wasn't a real follower
an christian anti-abortion protester shoots a doctor in the name of jesus... once again not a christian cos 'we wouldn't do that'
a priest gets caught fiddling little boys... once again obviously not a real christian
a serb general takes out all the muslim men and boys in a village, locks them in a barn and throws grenades inside... well, definitely not a christian right?
a muslim boards a commercial airliner, kills the crew, hijacks the plane and flies it into the WTC killing thousands... but hey islam is a religion of peace, so he 'wasn't one of us'

The world is sick of religious double talk. Get it?

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2006, 10:28:28 PM »
Ok.  I got it.  So lets ask this question.  Lets make this a REAL "History of Religion".

Where would modern society be today without it?  Do you really think organized religion has come this far and done no good for society, or that the bad outweighs what has been done for the good in the name of God?

I challenge you.  Prove you are more than a mouth and know something about history.

Or shut up.

You are sick of listening after all.  Go read another thread.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2006, 11:47:15 PM »
Don't even know where to wade in at this point, or whether to even try.

Of course all religions are the same, so is every political persuasion, every restaurant, every car, and every novel. All the same. Not that I've tried any, but I know we'd be better off without any of them.

I mean man, do you know how many people cars have gotten killed? And they get all advertizy in your face and are all like "This car is better than that car" and I'm like Dude, if you want to be all "automotive" that's fine, just keep it in your own garage, ok? Oh, and I hear politicians are corrupt and some of them are just in it for the money, and the wars politics has caused? Don't get me started. Oh, and as for "Restaurants" - I mean organized food - I've always felt its best if everyone just stayed home and ate their own food, by themselves, don't go pushing your restrictive "Menu" on me, and my friend got Food Poisoning to boot. Novels, don't tell me about novels, some of them are just bad and violent, and then you have to read it the way the author wants you too and accept his "plot" and "characters" or they tell you the end won't make sense even if you reach it, and they make you pay to read it. Well not me, I know more about novels, never having read one than anyone who has, and certainly A LOT more than the people who read them all the time.

:rolleyes:

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2006, 02:47:10 AM »
There is a quote ............... from some monk back around 700-800 AD, no one is sure of the author or the exact time it first appeared.  This was during some of the heyday of Islamic expansion in the Near East and Middle East.  Then, like now, it was easy to point the finger at Muslims and use their actions as carte blanche for doing just about anything in the name of "preserving" Christianity.  This monk condemned them for acting outside the teachings of Jesus to protect themselves or to further ambitions.

"They hide their faith, and they divulge to them (i.e. Muslims) what suits them.  They stray off the road which leads to the kingdom of heaven - hypocrites among us, marked with our mark, standing in our congregations, contradicting our faith, forfeiters of themselves, who are Christians in name only."

Western Civilization survived the Dark Ages becuase of monestaries in western europe that salvaged and preserved literature and ideas that would have otherwise been lost.  Development there would have been pushed back at least a hundred years if not for the work of those monks.  Many times those same monestaries provided sanctuary for the persecuted, providing them with safe havens when they would otherwise have perished.  What of those individuals who left homes and family to serve those less fortunate in distant lands?  The people who cared for lepers and the priests who went with the armies in time of war to provide comfort to those who could not be saved.  What did they ask for?  Who were they trying to con?  Read the bible and tell me where it says its ok to do any of the things you complain Christians are guilty of?  Where does it say its ok to kill people or to con them out of their money or to belittle or demean others?  At best an argument can be made that it allows you to fight in self defense, or in the defense of your faith if someone attacks you because of it, but nowhere does it give approval for killing outright, nowhere does it give approval to anything else I mentioned.  Matter of fact, the only straightforward statements in the Bible on these issues pretty emphatically say not to do them.  So tell me its not easy enough to tell who the people who deserve the title of Christian are.  All you have to do is look.  What does the Koran say about dealing with Jews and Christians?  What did Muhammad say about this?  Here we are fighting each other after all.  Have been for centuries.  Lets see what he said.

"Dispute not with the Peole of the Book save in the fairer manner, except for those of them that do wrong; and say, 'We believe in what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to you; our God and your God is One, and to Him we have surrendered'."

The Koran REQUIRES that Muslims respect the Ahl-al-Kitab, or "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians).  In other words, Muhammad recognized that all 3 served the same God and should respect one another.  So much for that eh?

Even when the empire the Muslims were building settled, when they controlled most of the Near East and Middle East, rather than internal conflict they co-existed with Christians and Jews, and even some leftover Zoroastrians from the Persian empire.  Yes they segregated the others somewhat, but other than a tax and prohibitions againt marrying Muslims they were left alone.  Indeed, the civilization they built collected all the learning of old Rome and Greece together in one place, provided open trade routes to more lands than had ever been connected before, established schools and hospitals that were far ahead of their time.  How much sooner did we develop practical Astronomy because of their work, both in collect previous work on the topic and in the work they did as well.  

You cant just dismiss the good religion has done in the world.  Nor should we ever dismiss when they do wrong.

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2006, 03:08:56 AM »
Quote
Where would modern society be today without it? Do you really think organized religion has come this far and done no good for society, or that the bad outweighs what has been done for the good in the name of God?


The modern society would be a millenium further in technological advancement. We might have discovered the oil based society hundreds or thousands of years earlier where the population was still small enough not to cause major ecological problems. By now we'd most likely run on clean fuels already.

But no, especially in the middle age the church suppressed all technological advancement. How many great scientists were jailed or totally suppressed by the oppressive church? Galileo Galilei, Copernicus etc. etc. not to mention how many thousands of others were left to oblivion because they had no freedom of expression.

The power of a society based on superstitious thinking and the limitations it has produced have slowed down our technological adancement up to a point where we're already overpopulated, underteched and about to face doom by unresolved ecological problems related to technology.

So there you have it.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2006, 04:20:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Western Civilization survived the Dark Ages becuase of monestaries in western europe that salvaged and preserved literature and ideas that would have otherwise been lost.  Development there would have been pushed back at least a hundred years if not for the work of those monks.  



Quote
The moment Christianity came into power in the fourth century, books that do not conform to its teaching were ferociously destroyed. Around 363-364, the Christian emperor Jovian, ordered the pagan library in Antioch to be burnt, leaving the helpless citizens watching the books go up in flames. [1]

Continuing this trend, around the year 372, the Christian emperor Valens (d.378), as part of his persecution of pagans, ordered the burning of non-Christian books in Antioch. (The main target were pagan books on divination and magic but most of the books burned were mainly on liberal arts and law). Fearful of the emperor, many provinces of the eastern empire burned their own libraries to avoid his wrath.[2]

Perhaps the greatest single intellectual loss of the classical world was the destruction of the library of Alexandria. At one time, it was reputed to house about 700,000 books on subjects ranging from literature and history to science and philosophy. In the year 391, the bishop of Alexandria, Theophilus (d.412), in his quest to destroy paganism, lead a group of crazed monks and laymen, destroyed all the books in the great library.

No other great libraries were spared by the Christians. Up to the fifth century many Greco Roman cities had libraries which housed more than 100,000 books. These were all destroyed by the Christians. Pope Gregory The Great (c.540-604) was the person responsible for destroying the last collection of older Roman works in the city. [3]

When the crusaders captured Tripoli in 1109, apart from butchering the defeated Muslims, they destroyed the Banu Ammar library, at that time, the finest Muslim library in the world. About 100,000 books of Muslim learning were cast into the flames. In the sack of Constantinople in 1204, the western crusaders destroyed the last surviving copies of classical works in Europe. [4]


btw, religions past, good or bad, is not what I'm talking about, religions present actions are. One could argue dictatorships were good in that they united many of the peoples in what continue to be modern nations today. But that doesn't mean the are good for our times.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 04:23:17 AM by Vulcan »

storch

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« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2006, 06:13:12 AM »
how could a minuscule and obscure middle eastern religious sect survive from the dawn of recorded history until the present inspite of the vigorous attempts of every major and minor world power to eradicate them from the face of the earth?  how is it that every culture that blesses and assists these people are richly blessed and those that do not disappear?  how is it that every prophecy written in this culture's annals has come to fruition 100% inerrantally?

Offline moot

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« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2006, 06:28:53 AM »
1) Ideas are akin to viruses, hosts may die, but the genes are passed on.
2) :noid
3) Did you mean "inherently"?  For the same reason every myth and legend in human history is, basically, the same.  All religions and gods and traditions are reiterations of the same archetype(s).
That said, how do you know this is a direct cause-effect corelation?  You'd have to be omniscient.  Or base your judgement on faith, which in terms of impartiality and rationality, might as well be copy-pasted from a Nostradamus scripture.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 06:32:06 AM by moot »
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storch

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« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2006, 06:38:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by moot
1) Ideas are akin to viruses, hosts may die, but the genes are passed on.
2) :noid
3) Did you mean "inherently"?  For the same reason every myth and legend in human history is, basically, the same.  All religions and gods and traditions are reiterations of the same archetype(s).
That said, how do you know this is a direct cause-effect corelation?  You'd have to be omniscient.  Or base your judgement on faith, which in terms of impartiality and rationality, might as well be copy-pasted from a Nostradamus scripture.
missed, again I might add.  jews are not an idea they are a people as well as a religion. nostrahandsomehunk was around 25% accurate and then his prophecies were vague in nature.  biblical prophecy is finely detailed and fulfilled 100% accurately 100% of the time.  it is inerrant.

Offline moot

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« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2006, 06:51:44 AM »
That's funny.. you mean being jewish, ethnicaly (dare we say biologicaly?), is an inherent god magic voodoo lucky charm?
'again'?
"inerrant"?
Why admit something you can't prove? If you don't understand something thru-and-thru, you can't predict it, regardless of current track record..  hindsight isn't foresight.
:lol Prophecy... why not astrology while you're at it?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2006, 06:55:52 AM by moot »
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