Author Topic: Perk The Spit16 (Read 2680 times)

F4UDOA · « **Reply #45 on:** February 28, 2006, 08:01:53 AM »

Quote

"those clipped wings though are a liability at lower speeds, especially at stall speeds."

In the F4U clipping the wings helped even out the stall and improved handling characteristics at the stall.

Krusty · « **Reply #46 on:** February 28, 2006, 08:07:26 AM »

P.S. full flaps landing speed being 3 mph faster is nothing. Individual planes on the same production run could vary that much from plane to plane and still be within manufacturer's specs.

Not to mention that nobody turns at stall speed, you are stalling because you are pulling extreme AoA, not because you're so slow. Most turn fights rarely get below 130 in spits, it seems. Especially not the spit16, because it's powerful engine is (for most pilots) set to FFT.

So a couple MPH on the stall means nothing, in AH.

Kev367th · « **Reply #47 on:** February 28, 2006, 08:35:40 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Charge

How much better is it then? Well how much heavier was the new wing?
Was there a noticeable weight increase in e-wing Spits?

-C+

Nearly 200lbs heavier dry, over 1200lbs heavier all up weight over a 'c' wing Spit IX.
(approx, didn't give exact load carried details)

You could probably work out weight of 4 x .303s removed, and the weight of 2 x .50s added, remainder would be structural changes. (again approx)

straffo · « **Reply #48 on:** February 28, 2006, 08:59:21 AM »

Stall is only function of the angle.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #49 on:** February 28, 2006, 10:26:19 AM »

Quoting Charles Brown, who is probably the high time current Spit pilot out there right now.

Clipped vs Elliptical wing tips:

Clipped wings have the following effects:
-Cruise speed increases by approximately 15 mph
-Rate of roll is markedly increased
-Slight increase in stall speed (3-5 mph)
-Noticable increase in drag during manoeuvre-Elipptical wing-tips really do minimize drag during manoeuvre.

Sounds about right if you compare the full span VIII and the clipped XVI in AH doesn't it.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #50 on:** February 28, 2006, 10:29:58 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Charge
"those clipped wings though are a liability at lower speeds, especially at stall speeds."

Actually, I think that the clipped wing probably had better stall characteristics than the full span wing.

***

"I would imagine a full span LF IXe would/should turn a lot better than the XVI and the VIII."

A lot better? How does a stiffer wing assist in turning "a lot"?
AFAIK building those hard-points itself requires a stronger wing structure, again resulting in stiffer wing and the roll rate gets better, aileron reversal happens in faster speed than previously and high speed stall characteristics are better because the wing does not flex uncontrollably in turns.

How much better is it then? Well how much heavier was the new wing?
Was there a noticeable weight increase in e-wing Spits?

-C+

Have to remember that the Universal wing on the Spit 8 was strengthened as well. While I believe the E wing was strengthened for the hard points, I've also come across more and more photos of Universal wings with the hardpoints, including on VIIIs and many IXs that were operating from England during the invasion timeframe.

Angus · « **Reply #51 on:** March 02, 2006, 11:34:41 AM »

CC the Mk VIII had a "stiffer" wing.
Smaller ailerons, but differently controlled to improve rollrate.

Karnak · « **Reply #52 on:** March 02, 2006, 11:56:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
CC the Mk VIII had a "stiffer" wing.
Smaller ailerons, but differently controlled to improve rollrate.

The Mk VIII in AH has the second worst roll rate of all Spits. Only the Mk I's is worse. The Mk V, Mk IX and Mk XIV all have the same roll rate, about 10 degrees/second faster than the Mk VIII at peak.

Angus · « **Reply #53 on:** March 02, 2006, 12:48:54 PM »

I know.
The ailerons were made smaller to diminish high speed flutter.
That caused worse rollrate. I think that was originally done on Mk IX's which are basically Mk V's regarding the airframe.
On the VIII they countered this with a stiffer wing and different control of the ailerons. Almost every spit pilot who flew the VIII describes it as very much better than the IX. Quill comes to my mind in the first thought.

Krusty · « **Reply #54 on:** March 02, 2006, 04:10:32 PM »

I thought folks already brought up the Spit8 roll rate, and that HTC countered with the place/type of info it used in setting the roll rates, and that all was kosher?

Creton · « **Reply #55 on:** March 02, 2006, 04:22:46 PM »

This plane doesnt need to be perked at all.I fly the 109's almost exclusively and I've found that to take a spit16 in vertical,weather it be vertical scissors or any other maneuver ,they will fall off in a sustained vertical fight.Ive dueled some very good 16 sticks in the DA who were very surprised to see that the uber 16 wouldnt prop hang as long as the 109g2 could.It boils down to flying the planes strengths that you are in.My squad dueled Batfinks squad of which one of his squadies claims to be VERY GOOD in the spit16 and if I can find the film ,we ended up 1v1 ,he and I,his 16 vs my g2,both times I was successfull at the scissors by agressive throttle control and flaps,speeds were down in the 30's at the top and upwards of 100 at the bottom of the maneuvers,each time we intersected I would go slighty nose up to force him to have to match and at those slow speed the 16 couldnt do it.I find that this tatcic is hard to apply in the MA simply because of other fighters picking you,but in 1v1 forcing the fight low and really slow the 16 has stability issues that the 109 is able to exploit if only by the smallest of margins.Its like we say in drag racing though"it doesnt matter weather you beat them by a block or by a fender,you still win at the finish line"If anything I would think that the stability issue would be more of concern for 16 pileits to worry about.To me its has the same basic problems that all the high power a/c have and that is in the low speed performance area its just gets to squerrly,the k4 is the same way,flown aggressively but at below 75 mph in hard turning fight it get s very unstable,but if you fly the g2 its less power but better in the low end perfomance.Sure you lose acceleration and some climb but most fights end up low and slow and the pilot who can best control his plane on the bottom edge of the envelope will most likely win.These are just my ideas on the spit16,call it uber if you want but it has nothing over the 109k4,with the sole exception of roll rate.

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #56 on:** March 02, 2006, 04:34:38 PM »

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Originally posted by Saxman
I've flown the 16 twice. Once because I was fed up with the billion other Spit XVIs attacking a base so decided to fight fire with fire. I felt so dirty, right up until I got HOed by another fricken Spit about a minute after takeoff.

Good! Serves ya right!

had a good fight in the Birdcage Corsair against a spit 16...like all spitfires, they can be beaten if you don't get sucked into their TnB game...and one snapshot...game over...

Saxman · « **Reply #57 on:** March 02, 2006, 07:00:06 PM »

I've started finding some success against Spits trying to break turn and force me to pull lead or let him slip behind me by pulling up into something of a barrel roll instead, coming over the top and dropping onto his 6, sorta like the vertical scissors PF was showing me in the TA (that I'm not very consistent with. Almost forced an VIII to overshoot and held him off long enough for help to shoot him off, most of the time I can't get my Hog to roll over fast enough).

Guppy35 · « **Reply #58 on:** March 02, 2006, 07:03:44 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
The Mk VIII in AH has the second worst roll rate of all Spits. Only the Mk I's is worse. The Mk V, Mk IX and Mk XIV all have the same roll rate, about 10 degrees/second faster than the Mk VIII at peak.

I'm not sure on the roll rate anymore. It seems the same as the IX. It sure hasn't been an issue when flying the VIII for me. I'm back to preferring the VIII over the IX again.

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #59 on:** March 08, 2006, 12:25:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Saxman
I've started finding some success against Spits trying to break turn and force me to pull lead or let him slip behind me by pulling up into something of a barrel roll instead, coming over the top and dropping onto his 6, sorta like the vertical scissors PF was showing me in the TA (that I'm not very consistent with. Almost forced an VIII to overshoot and held him off long enough for help to shoot him off, most of the time I can't get my Hog to roll over fast enough).

Use the rudder to get your angle, and push stick full left level, then reverse.
Get off the rudder as soon as you change your AoA, then kick hard when you reverse your roll. Pay attention to your level of flight, use nose up-nose down rolls to adjust speed.