Bish?

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by Bruv119
I swapped over from a different ww2 flying game about 8 months ago.

There are no mannable tanks/acks/carriers/boats.

This game is one of the best ww2 games online out there and instead of whining about this and that.  Take a step back take a few deep breaths pick your favourite plane, tank or standard issue PT boat and enjoy what you have.

The whole country setup isn't perfect but its down to the players to even out the sides  if they feel one team is getting ganged unless HT introduces an even team balancer when everyone logs in ( im sure that would cause even more uproar than how it is now).

No doubt in the future with combat tour and new terrains, maps, a few more planes and vehicles it will develop into an even better game than it is at present.



Bruv119

~S~

group hug!

Yup.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Hello ... my name is Slapshot ... I am a furballer ... whew ... glad I got that out.

Taking out troops or gas accomplishs the same objective ... it can stop the horde dead in its tracks.

Allowing gas to be taken out is a double edged sword tho ... the horde can use that to stop defensive measures.

If fields were spaced farther apart, the horde could send out satelite groups to easily pork the underdog's gas. So, with that, you now have %25 fuel ... you will have enough to get to the fight, but you won't have enough to sustain the fight ... hence they roll over you like a steamroller.

Whereas, the horde could pork all the underdog's troops .... so what ... you don't need troops to fly and try fight off the horde ... unlike gas.

One other important note, which I think is the real reason as to why we have what we have ... without gas, you cannot fly ... and everybody pays to FLY, not sit in the tower ... HT recognized that and solutioned it.

Yeah, I suspected you were a furballer.  Nothing wrong with that.  I understand it’s actually a part of the game these days.  

Actually, I’ve been told by other furballers that 25% fuel is more than enough for them to up defensive fighters.  Further, with 25% fuel a bomber can still get out to the enemy fields and other strats even when they’re spaced further apart.  And of course fuel supply doesn’t touch the abilities of gv’s.

In AH1 all the maps save one had greater distancing between them.  All the fields could be brought down to 25%.  I never saw a situation where people couldn’t get into the air to fly and find a fight.  I did, however, see a lot of complaint that they couldn’t get to where they wanted to be to pursue “steam rolling”.  Closer fields and a minimum of 75% fuel has put greater emphasis on fighter aircraft.  More emphasis on furballing and less on long term strategic planning.  Other changes such as hardening HQ’s have contributed to this.  It used to be that P-38’s could up in a mass and destroy an HQ.  Now even a couple formations of Lancaster’s can’t do it.  At least I can’t find anyone who’s been successful with them.  The end result, though still a game I enjoy, is a game that is a bit more like checkers and a bit less like chess.  We’ve gotten away from interesting situations like the Pizza Map.  On that map you could have a wide variety of experiences.  The perimeter offered the chance to have gv battles with very little in the way of interference from fighter aircraft.  Battles that actually had the goal of taking territory rather than just hammering at each other to see how many kills you could get.  There was, of course, tank town on some of the maps back then.  However, even tank town was contested as a strategically desirable territory since the vehicle spawns to outside tank town were different than now.

HT recognized that a lot of players like to fly fighters and mix it up in same.  He played to that crowd.  They are, after all, the majority of players.  The result is gratifying to the furball crowd and less interesting to others or even fighter pilots who like to do a bit of long range strategic thinking.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Indeed, if you backtrack through the BBS you'll find each country raising the same concerns at least once or twice.

The porking of troops/ord has a backlash effect for the defender too. If the map is within a couple of fields of reseting, porking prolongs the "every field is vultched" condition. For hours. And hours. I'm not saying abandon defense, but the way the system works now the "best defense" (porking) means staying stuck in a rotten situation longer. After a map reset a lot of the Horde will leave anway (hey, they got their perks, what else is there?).

And I am NOT saying that troops/ord shouldn't be destroyable - just that it should take more than a few bursts of 20mm to do it. Make it at least require a 500 pounder or two per outhouse. If porking is such a valuable way to help your team, at least make it require a little skill.

I agree.  Every country has their time to get the stuffing beat out of them.

I’ve seen countries reduced to 9 fields and bounce back overnight on the same map.  Sometimes they even have pulled it out of the fire to the extent they win the map.  Guess they got some inertia going.  Increased moral or whatever.

Yes, a lot of the “horde” will go away after a reset.  They’ll also go away if they can’t get traction and make headway against a very stubborn defense.  Has to do with frustration levels, attention spans and lack of more or less instant gratification.

Recently I watched a P-51 taking out ordnance at a field.  Using just his guns.  He actually got a few before he was chopped up by the ack.  Fifty caliber weapons taking out what is presumably the representation of a concrete bunker.  Now I believe the .50 cal to be a heck of a nice weapon, but taking out a concrete bunker?!  Common!  Currently I strat by dropping a salvo of 500 lb. bombs on them.  Troops, radar and ordnance.  I too think it should take a bit more than a couple bursts of 20mm cannon, powerful as that gun is.  In the end, it’s what we’ve got though.  I try to work with what I/we have to form strategy.  That’s harder than it used to be.

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by doc1kelley
Perhaps I just don't get it!  Anybody who has flown in AH for any length of time has seen their country have it's time in the barrell.  Why all the moaning now?  I'm a Bish and it's just our turn as we've enjoyed being on the other end from time to time.  I'm not saying that it's right,  just saying that it's just the cycle of life in the game.  Sometimes it does the soul good to be force fed some humble pie.  I don't like the taste either and I've had to swallow it a few times in the past and the best defence for it is when it's just getting to the point that you can't up  anywhere without being vulched, log off and play a quick game of a 1st person shooter and burn some of the frustration off for a while.  We are a competetive society and we all like to win but every game has it's winners and it's loosers and we just gotta accept the fact that ya just can't be the winner all the time.

Just my 2 cent piece...

Jay
awDoc1:cool:

Your 2 cents has left out inflation. Never ever in 5+ yrs i have been here has another country outnumbered one of the others by the 50% to even to 57% we seen this entire weekend Fri-Sun. Rooks at 274 Bish at 120. I do agree that it is indeed cyclic. I also know that is is growing farther out of whack with each cycle percentage wise. And on a 256x256 Map and a 58% advantage...Well...there really isn't much way to Up from an un capped base is there? Bish had 4 bases left for the last 3 hrs before reset. A17 A16 A12 and A15. All 4 bases at one point for about 40 mins was Vulched. Hardly a way to fight back. These clowns that try to get us to "See the brighter side" are out  of control. (Not talking about you Doc1) Some have "Switched to the funer side" about 40 last count, Not including the JBs who were temporary Bish. JB's was fun. Plan on being in the barrel for about another 6 months or more. Because this is what will happen baring something that will turn it around faster than normal. And Normal is much much more severe than it has been in the past. Anyone that flies Bish know that ingame I dont spend time whining to the Bish about how bad we are outnumbered and such. I try to pull us together as a country. But here on the BBS i am simply stating what "IS" and this has no reflection on my approach on how to fight back against the high odds. There is always a way. But getting as many as it would take to fight back "Smarter" is a horse of a different color. When numbers are this far out of kilter guys are just to overwhelmed to belive that it can be done. And they dont want to be patient enough to wait in a tower for even 10 mins to get our forces pulled together and organized. Its a "Cant see the forest for the trees" type thing. And it is very understandable. It will change..but "IF" and i say "IF" something different than the normal doesn't happen soon you will see this drag out for at least another 6 months. I will continue to try to come up with ways and suggestions to fellow countrymen to make it change faster but i really wonder how well its going to play out. Not that i think "I" am the one who knows what it will take but "I" am willing to try to get Bish thinking new angles and ideas aside from the rut we have fallen into.
Thats my last voice on the issue here in the BBS. Good luck Bish

[dedalos]

Well, I switched to Bish (yes I took 10 showers already) last night to help, since their numbers were low.  I think I might have figured out why people don't fly Bish.  Range chanel.  OMFG!!!!zzz111.  The play by blay is unbelivable.  Check it check it check it check it check it ia all you hear in between the play by play of how they killed someone.  My head phones cought on fire  

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by ChopSaw
Your point of view is idealistic.  People play the way they play.  It's got less to do with ideals and more to do with the more common denominators.  For them being on the winning side is the fun part.  It is simply human nature to like winning.  It is a positive associative experience.  They like being part of the “steam rolling” side.  I think the trees are obscuring your view of the forest on this one and you’re not seeing the reality of the situation.

I’m not saying people are switching just prior to the reset in numbers, though there are those that do.  What I’m saying is people are viewing the trends and seeing who is winning most lately and gradually the numbers build up on that side.  It is not an instant “wow I’d better switch because x is going to win”.  It is a “I’m tired seeing those other guys win all the time and I’m joining them”.

That's entirely possible. Being one that never switches countries and finds good/frequent fights far more fun than steamrolling I suppose I could have a biased viewpoint. Most of the people I play/talk with are old grizzled vets like myself and think likewise. To a newer, less established player I suppose the perceived 'success' in terms of base-counts and resets could seem very important in choosing country affiliation. For us old vets it's all about friendships, comraderie and adapting your fighting style to suit the situation, which is half the fun of the game once you've mastered the basics. That is opposed to those that choose to change their situation via country jumping to suit their inflexible style, which is what you are suggesting people tend to do...

I have no doubt of the existence of 'fair weather flyers' who do tend to change, over time, to countries that are on the upswing in the balance flux. I also suggest that those people who do that are of little use relative to those who stay put and persevere at a disadvantage. Those that jump to have advantage are doing so because they are failing to adapt, those that cannot adapt readily are of little value in terms of combat effectiveness. So, I suppose if you look at it from strictly a raw numbers perspective their jumping to gain advantage seems significant, but what it is really doing is diluting the talent pool of the advantaged team and enhancing the concentration of dedicated talent on the disadvantaged team...

Zazen

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by ChopSaw
I agree.  Every country has their time to get the stuffing beat out of them.

I’ve seen countries reduced to 9 fields and bounce back overnight on the same map.  Sometimes they even have pulled it out of the fire to the extent they win the map.  Guess they got some inertia going.  Increased moral or whatever.

Yes, a lot of the “horde” will go away after a reset.  They’ll also go away if they can’t get traction and make headway against a very stubborn defense.  Has to do with frustration levels, attention spans and lack of more or less instant gratification.

Recently I watched a P-51 taking out ordnance at a field.  Using just his guns.  He actually got a few before he was chopped up by the ack.  Fifty caliber weapons taking out what is presumably the representation of a concrete bunker.  Now I believe the .50 cal to be a heck of a nice weapon, but taking out a concrete bunker?!  Common!  Currently I strat by dropping a salvo of 500 lb. bombs on them.  Troops, radar and ordnance.  I too think it should take a bit more than a couple bursts of 20mm cannon, powerful as that gun is.  In the end, it’s what we’ve got though.  I try to work with what I/we have to form strategy.  That’s harder than it used to be.

We're not that far out of agreement then.


A concrete bunker going down to .50 cal fire is no less realistic than an aircraft carrier being sunk by 20mm fire. Which is to say: not very.


I routinely see heavy and medium bombers working in groups of 2 or 3 flights, often with one or two escorts. And they pork bases just fine, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. That's how it should be happening.

It's the solo dribbler who will overfly incoming attacks - which he could delay or stop - and defer helping friendlies simply to get his moment of glory as he porks a base and disrupts the play of 20 or 30 other players. Just to be clear, my problems with pork-runners are that:

1) It reduces the importance of bombers. A20's and B26's and Mosi's and Sturmi's should be the tools of choice for tactical base attacks, how often do you see these planes anywhere in the MA? Most of the action Sturmi's get is as base defenders when FH go down.

2) It keeps a lot of players from actually learning how to fly and fight. They are contributing to the team, but they will suck at the game for a long, long while if this is all they do.

3) It gives one person too much power to disrupt the flow of play for many others. Same reason HQ's were made tougher, so one lone Lanc flight couldn't take out country-wide radar. One lone Tiffy shouldn't be able to cripple base capture along an enture front.

4) It is virtually impossible to stop a Kamikaze - always has been - any time you have something on the food chain with no natural enemy, it will be exploited - as it is being done now.


As for turning the tide, yeah. The Bish put up a great defense at A15 on Sunday - but we ended up diverting to another field and that's what led to the reset. I know the Rooks were pushed back pretty far on one of the big maps a week or so ago, and we ended up winning the map after a lot of work, much of it without any sizeable numbers edge. So it can be done.

I'm really kind of surpised the odds have swung so heavily. I fly with the same bunch I usually do, so I really don't pay much attention to what's going on elsewhere. But when looking at the roster this weekend it became clear that either people are moving or people are standing down or both.

[mars01]

My observations on the numbers stand. While it has always been numbers driven to some extent, this effect is enhanced in AH2 because of the closer spacing of the fields.

Closer fields have nothing to do with country numbers.  

The biggest horde wins all the time.  Closer bases actually helps to deter the Horde.  

If a field is being attacked by the horde and I can up from half a sector away I can defend that field in time.  And I don't mind getting gang banged since it is a short flight.

If my supporting field is a sector or more away I will not get to the horded field in time and who wants to fly all that way to get gang raped by the horde.  So there is no point in trying to defend the base by upping from another field.

Your observations are wrong Beet1e, I mean Chopsaw.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Zazen13
That's entirely possible. Being one that never switches countries and finds good/frequent fights far more fun than steamrolling I suppose I could have a biased viewpoint. Most of the people I play/talk with are old grizzled vets like myself and think likewise. To a newer, less established player I suppose the perceived 'success' in terms of base-counts and resets could seem very important in choosing country affiliation. For us old vets it's all about friendships, comraderie and adapting your fighting style to suit the situation.

...snip....
Zazen

I agree completely, Zazen.

I've only played 2 years, and the grizzling in my beard is because I'm old (44, but to a 16 year old...) not because I'm esperienced.

I think the base capture thing may be personality style (i.e. liking team vs individual sports), but I think even more that its part of the natural evolution of player development. Where once I had to up in buffs on milk runs to land at all, I later could kill attackers and would go closer to the action, and now I might fly into a furball jsut for the fun of it. At first< i couldnt surive in a sector with less than 2:1 friendly advantage, and now I'll deliberately swoop in and out of a horde of low enemies by myself.

And, honestly, once you've seeen the circle of AH life a few hundred times, it loses its attraction. Resets arent that exciting after 2 years, and 25 perks might be 3 sorties' work with a high eny plane.

I mean, how often do you keep playing tic-tac-toe after you've seen how it comes out?

I'd suggest that "working together on the winning side" is often less a matter of liking teamwork and more a matter of finding a way to feel like the player is succeeding when they're having trouble winning air to air fights alone.

If you really like winning aginast a challenge, try taking the LOW side and overwhelming the numerically superior with teamwork!!

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01

The biggest horde wins all the time....    

I don't necessarily agree with that. Plenty of resets have been won during periods of relative numerical parity to prove that this is at least partly untrue. All things being equal, the most tightly ogranized team able to concentrate talent at the correct strategic points at the correct time wins resets. All numbers do is make it more likely success can be achieved without having talent concentrated, being organized or focussing that talent properly. Less numbers mean that for success to be achieved a higher degree of focussed effort, organization and talent will have to be applied at the correct time and place.

It's easier to comprehend what this means if looking at it microcosmically.

Take a 10 vs 10 furball between team a and team b. If team a has 2 skilled vets; 3 average players; 5 complete noobs and team b has 7 skilled vets; 2 average players and 1 complete noob. Well, you can safely predict that while numbers are perfectly equal success will go to team b, all other factors being equal, every-time.

Now suppose there's a 12 vs 9 furball between team a and b, this is roughly the ratio of numerical disparity teams can have in the MA before the ENY kicks in. Let's say team a has 2 skilled vets; 3 average players and 6 complete noobs. Team b has 6 skilled vets; 2 average players and 1 complete noob. This fight would be a win for team b most, if not every-time despite being at a significant numerical disadvantage.

The point is, absolute numbers are not the end-all be-all deciding factor of outcomes in the MA. Relative skill and its timely and prudent application is far more important imho than raw numbers. I would rather be in a contentious furball with 5 grizzled old war dogs than 8 complete noobs everytime, anytime, anywhere. Comparing sheer numbers only works as a measuring stick if we are all cookie cutter copies of each other, equally talented and equally distributed throughout the 3 countries, which is absolutely not the case...

Zazen

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I don't necessarily agree with that. Plenty of resets have been won during periods of relative numerical parity to prove that this is at least partly untrue. All things being equal, the most tightly ogranized team able to concentrate talent at the correct strategic points at the correct time wins resets.

That usualy ends up being a hord.  I think by hord Mars did not mean numbers but actually hording fields one after another.  The country with the smallest numbers if organized, could easyly hord 1 field after another.  Not very possible when they are down to 5 fields, but at the beginning of a new map, they can easylly do it.

[mars01]

Dude the numbers/Horde rule base capture.  Numbers/horde rule map reset.  Of course flying for the Rooks all the time you wouldn't know any better since for the majority of the time you are usually always flying with the numbers.

Everything you posted has nothing to do with what I posted except that you were talking to me.  Why are you talking furballs when my post was about base capture and map reset.

The country with the smallest numbers if organized, could easyly hord 1 field after another.

If the other country let them, which is highly unlikely - unless you were on a map like pizza  As soon as the other country starts to defend they will have the numbers to overwhelm.

Even the best vets faced with the horde are going to eventually get smacked down.  It happens every night.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by dedalos
That usualy ends up being a hord.  I think by hord Mars did not mean numbers but actually hording fields one after another.  The country with the smallest numbers if organized, could easyly hord 1 field after another.  Not very possible when they are down to 5 fields, but at the beginning of a new map, they can easylly do it.

Originally posted by mars01
Dude the numbers/Horde rule base capture. Numbers/horde rule map reset. Of course flying for the Rooks all the time you wouldn't know any better since for the majority of the time you are usually always flying with the numbers.

Everything you posted has nothing to do with what I posted except that you were talking to me. Why are you talking furballs when my post was about base capture and map reset.

If a country dedicates the bulk of their force to dominoe horde one base after another in succession they will likely lose 3 undefended bases to a smaller, yet more efficient application of force by the enemy elsewhere...This is basic economy of force military dogma, it is impractical and unwise to use 3 times the force required to accomplish an objective, especially in a linear game like AH (no one base is of greater intrinsic strategic value to another) when that means you stand to lose 3 bases to every one taken in doing so. If dominoe hording is successful in AH it is only because the defending team is not taking proper advantage of the enemy's foolish lack of efficient economy of force.

Zazen

[E25280]

As a member of one of the squads that recently switched from Bish to Rook, thought I should throw something out . . .

I think it was mentioned early in the thread that the two sides with numbers / momentum / whatever you call it tend to gang up on the smaller side.  Whether true or not, it is the perception of the side getting creamed that the other two countries just are not fighting each other.

My squad occasionally switches sides and fights the other non-Bish country.  In a perverse way, we are doing what we can to try to pull some of the pressure off of the Bish line.  So as a Rook, maybe by pushing into Knit territory some of the Knits will get off of the Bish line to defend, and maybe some of the Rooks will perceive momentum in a non-Bish sector and go there rather than follow the horde.

I should point out that every time the squad has done this while I have been a member, it has caused instant tension within the squad as several members simply refuse to leave Bishops.  Some believe it helps, some think it makes no difference, and to be honest, I really don't know if it does or not.  In the end, those who switch have always gone back after it seemed the fighting was more evenly spread out.

I may very well get killed by my squad mates for letting this out here "in public", but I also don't want to be thought of as a "fair weather flyer".  I am not good enough or on often enough for anyone to notice who or where I am, so I suppose I am really more concerned with how my squadies are perceived.  They are a great bunch of guys, do the best they can to help out where they can.  Also die-hard Bishops at heart, even if temporarily flying Rook.

[mars01]

If a country dedicates the bulk of their force to dominoe horde one base after another in succession they will likely lose 3 undefended bases to a smaller, yet more efficient application of force by the enemy elsewhere...This is basic economy of force military dogma, it is impractical and unwise to use 3 times the force required to accomplish an objective, especially in a linear game like AH (no one base is of greater intrinsic strategic value to another) when that means you stand to lose 3 other bases to every one taken in doing so. If dominoe hording is successful in AH it is only because the defending team is not taking proper advantage of the enemy's foolish lack of efficient economy of force.

Funny how your dogma doesn't relate to the MA.  And you are assuming that the hording country doesn't have enough people to defend your little weaker attack on the hording country.  

In the MA each countries horde attacks undefended bases.  At the same time people who hate flying with the horde go and look for bases to defend, thus putting your small uber attack force out of business.

Your premise is all wrong.