Author Topic: Saw on russian news...  (Read 2031 times)

Offline Naso

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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2000, 10:19:00 AM »
mmm, going to be more interesting.

Thank you both milenko and boroda for your informations <S>!

 

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2000, 01:53:00 PM »
People will always be paranoid about Russia in the West - we have completely different (incompatible?) mindsets. Miko makes a good point about Russia moving quickly from system to another (under the guidance of Stalin) - seems to me that is exactly what has happened to Russia in the last ten years.

Seventy years of repression and austerity and within a couple years a free market. And it isn't exactly working for the average Russian, it seems to me. I just hope democracy can maintain the foothold it has, for the sake of the Russian people and the rest of the world.

And then there's China... I'll say one thing for muli-national capitalism, it's getting stronger by the day in China, and it might make any agression/hostility to the West, 'uneconomical'.
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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2000, 04:46:00 PM »
 Boroda,
 I do not have the time for the lengthy responce now.
 I lived in Kharkov, Ukraine. That was a russian-speaking city, the 3rd significant industrial and educational city in USSR.
 My parents are and engineer and a college professor. My family had constant correspondence with our relatives in US since 1970, though they hid it from me until I was old enough to keep my mouth shut.
 I left Ukraine in 1989 and came to US in 1990 at the age of 24.
 I got a Masters in C.S. here on top of my soviet degree in Electronics and now I am a programmer (surprise!).

 I consider myself an american - my English is probably better then that of the most people where I live (New York    ), I probably paid more taxes already then average american pays during his career    . My external political views are typically american - not discernible with a naked eye.

 I have no idea what "mazhor" means - not a musical term, I guess. What does it really mean?

 I served in the Soviet Army in 1984-1986. I was demobilized from Belorussia on April 28, 1986 - two days after Chernobyl blew up few dosen miles away. Rather then go home I chose to spend the 1st of May holiday with my army friend in neaby Minsk - the capital of Belorussia.
 There was a huge selebration, hundreds of thousands of people demonstrating outside. There was absolutely no indication of any kind of danger.
 On May 2nd I left for home and arrived to Kharkov. In two weeks people found out that something happened, though not the extent of it.
 In our city all the radiation counters in the offices that had them became controlled stricter then Xerox machines or typewriters. Those asking for them got friendly talk about spreading unwarranted panic.

 Number of soldiers fighting in Afganistan and number of casualties was not known even to the direct participants until the Glasnost. In first-person view it was sometimes obvious that we were not helping the peacefull population against "american agressors" at their own request.
 Not that coming home the veterans freely discussed their findings and observations, at least not until the same Glastnost. Even then most prefered to keep their mouths shut and tried to forget what they did.
 Because suddenly "dukhi" became noble "freedom fighters" and we became butchers of innocent civilians, just like the US vietnam Vets but with more reason. Now that the "freedom fighters" are bringing their war onto the soil of the former USSR, the people must be really confused who the hell is the bad guy...

 I agree that the Voice of America's and Deithsche Vella's (sp?) broadcasts were quite inept. The numbers how much an average worker earned and paid for various things would be very usefull for those who believed them.

 Yes, everything was getting worse each year, but that was the fault of the capitalists - we had to arm ourselves to keep the world peace!

 My vision of Russian TV is just exact descripion of what I saw once at my in-laws. I do not watch it. I have no idea whether it is representative of the whole. I was just surprised by the tone with wich she mentioned complete and obvious falsehood as accepted fact.

 Of course the intellectual elite was more knowlegeable and skeptical then I described. I thought all people were like that until I went I went to the serve in the army after 2 years in college. There I met real people and had to live among them for quite a while.
 Even among the intellectuals there was never hope for any change or any activity other then retyping of some books. The whole Perestroika thing was quite a surprise for most, I am sure M. Gorbachev did not expect such spectacular results of his little "liberalisation experiment" eiter.

 I am sure that our experiences could be quite different in the same country. The driver of my tank retired from the army to marry a wife his parents bought him. When we met, I did not think such things existed in Soviet Union and he did not know how many republics there were in USSR or where America, let alone Israel was.

 You probably know, Pavel, that life in Moskow and Leningrad - two capitals of USSR wass in no way indicative of the life in the rest of the country. I lived in a major city myself and felt the difference.
 Hard to buy a receiver? How about two years without a toothpaste? One of the three bycicle factories in the USSR was in Kharkov and it took me 2 years to catch one on sale?
 Our VEF (not bought in Kharkov) had 21 and 17 meter bands that were blanketed around the clock. But there are not 2 SW but at least 5 bands on which there were broadcasts.

 Anyway, I am writing posts here, not dissertations. So my statements may seem less objective and more partial than they really are - cannot cover every angle. Take them with a grain of salt and do not hesitate to ask for explanations.
 I am learning a lot about you people from such discussions, whether I agree with the views or not.

 US is not a friend of Russia. Russia is doing plenry of things detrimental to american interests. Most disconcerning is supplying nuclear technology to the fundamental muslim regimes that are openly hostile to the USA. But it is definitely not an enemy - not to the politicians and not in the public minds.
 I heard on TV recently - NBC's Olympic Broadcasts Ratings are way lower then expected. Here is (their) explanation - "People are not interested because there are no villains in the world any more to have strong feelings about. When russian sportsmen lose, we just feel sorry for them."

Regards,
miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 09-28-2000).]

Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2000, 09:47:00 AM »
37, university, left in 1990.

Remember that when I was a kid I felt sorry for you lot - you couldn't have possibly had as happy a childhood you imperialist bastards, could you now? I mean, without the Communist Party looking after you?  

Once asked a friend of mine - a very nice Spanish lady - how she felt living in a country ruled by a "fascist dictator Franko". For a long time she couldn't figure out what I was on about - she lived normally, went to school, holidays, boys, whatever...

Boroda - "visiting" is not enough to even begin to understand what life is like, I'm afraid. Shops and stuff are there - so are the dentist bills, taxes, mortgage payments etc.

As for luxuries, cars etc without reference I can give you a simple comparison:

Back in 1990 Lada cost ~9,000 roubles (official price, since there was a severe shortage of cars available to buy the actual price would be in excess of 50K); average annual salary - 2,400. Lada-class car here, in the UK, would cost something like £6,000-8,000 new with an average salary of ~£12K. Spot the difference. I bought my first car here in the UK - a 1982 Toyota Starlet - in 1991 for 80 quid (eight zero) - that would be an equivalent of 16 roubles - 4 bottles of vodka (3.62 OR 4.12 a bottle, depending on the brand). Did 20K on it (miles, that is) - not a glitch, went later as a £400 part-exchange.

Dunno how you guys got this stuff in Moscow but in 1991 there was a little turmoil there - the one when Gorbachev was shifted and Yeltsin rose to power - it was NOT reported by ANY Russian stations in Novosibirsk. They listened to Voice of America to learn what was happening.

(For not-Russians amongst us - Novosibirsk, 1,500,000 people, one of the largest industrial, military and scientific centres in former USSR, located bang in the middle of Russia, stick your finger in the centre of the map - it's there).

Nobody's perfect but we, humans, fear what we don't know. In many cases people believe what they're told because there's no other means to get information.

And (for Dowding) BBC coverage is good but I've heard enough c**p from all those so called "experts" that keep popping up every time anything happens whether on BBC, ITN or Sky that I just treat anything I hear from "official" sources with a healthy doze of scepticism now. No way all the journalists reporting "unbiased".

Apologies for incoherent ramblings.

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lynx
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[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 09-29-2000).]

Offline cvb---

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« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2000, 12:44:00 PM »
To the "British" guy - it's nice that you managed to get that wonderful Toyota. But the thing is... Well, used cars suck, no matter how long you can "drive" them before they completely die.

To the "Kharkov" dude - get a grip. Have you ever seen those magazines they sell in grocery stores? Those things have even more amazing stories  

To the real westerners. You guys need to get real. West has a lot of poverty too. And not as much freedom as you western guys grew up to think.

Offline Udie

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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2000, 12:57:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by cvb---:
To the "British" guy - it's nice that you managed to get that wonderful Toyota. But the thing is... Well, used cars suck, no matter how long you can "drive" them before they completely die.

To the "Kharkov" dude - get a grip. Have you ever seen those magazines they sell in grocery stores? Those things have even more amazing stories    

To the real westerners. You guys need to get real. West has a lot of poverty too. And not as much freedom as you western guys grew up to think.


 Untrue!  While there is ALOT more regulation than there was when I was a child, we are still very free, as long as we act responsibly (that's the key to freedom IMO).  I'm a perfect example, I work at home.  I wake up when I want too, work when I want too and go to bed when I want too.  There's not one person on this Earth that can tell me what to do   and expect me to do it. BUT I'd be willing to bet that leonid and Miko have a much greater understanding of freedom than I could ever have.  I've been free my whole life and that's the only reference point I have.

 True there's alot of poverty, but heck even the poor in America have 2 tv's and a car, except the homeless and they would to if they were smart enough to go get on the public dole.  I had surgery when I was 21 on my left wrist, I had a ganglean cyst.  I had it done at the county hospitol here in Houston.  Cost me ZERO money.  It took a bit longer than if I would have had insurance, but I still got it taken care of.  They base it on how much you make, I made nothing that year so I paid nothing. Thanks Texas tax payers!!!!!!

 About our tabloids in our supermarkets, DUH!!! An 8 year old vampire lesbian discovered Elvis is living on Mars!  What's so hard to believe about that?  


Lynx and Miko,

 Do you guys find it strange/sad what Americans get pissed over? Like high gas prices and $3 ATM fees.  Anyway once again I'm glad you guys are free now   and hope we all get to stay this way!

Udie

[This message has been edited by Udie (edited 09-29-2000).]

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2000, 01:00:00 PM »
Well, nice to see your answers     Lynx, so long!     How is your family in Arkhangel'sk?

First I want to say that I do NOT think that Soviet time was better then what we have now. For a young man Russia now is a land of opportunities. That's why I am afraid of current trends in government...

"Mazhor" is a nickname (negative, "izdevatel'skiy") for a young man from "elite": studying in a specialized school was enough. Remember DDT's song: "Mal'chiki mazhory"? I had a lot of troubles in a neighbourhood, even living in the center of Moscow...

Miko, I know about demonstrations in Kiev and Minsk. OTOH - almost all children were evacuated from Kiev that summer, like during Moscow Olympics.

Radiation counter we used was an ordinary school gadget, nothing like military ones (that were availible in military science classrooms too), and all we could do was count "cliks". I doubt that such "counters" were confiscated from schools anywhere.

"Dukhi" never became "freedom fighters". Nothing more then "armed opposition". People here never cared for Afghan civilians, Russian lives were the most important thing for public opinion. And what we have in Chechnya now never makes anyone call gangsters "freedom fighters". Try to advocate Chechens in a proletarian company - you'll probably get beaten fast.

You had a VEF with 17m band? Export version? My sets had only 25, 31, 41 and 49m     In any sel'po, not speaking about district capitals (raytsentr) you could get 3-5 brands of SW recievers, different price ranges and features. Even in the Western Ukraine.

I know that life was different in Moscow. But don't you think I have never been outside of a Garden Ring? I have relatives all over the Union, in Chernovtsy, Simferopol', Sverdlovsk, Krasnodar... Yes, we had meat and sausage in stores all the time, but I never saw my relatives (differnt social groups, from peasants and workers to doctors and officers) not only starving, but even complaining that they can't get food!

Cars, yes, cars. It was difficult to buy a new Lada, you have to subscribe and wait for a few years. But you could buy a used car pretty easy. Lynx, I think that you just didn't face this problem when you lived in Leningrad? More to say: peasants could buy cars much easier then city people. In wealthy regions (Western Ukraine, Kuban') almost every family had a car.

Also, please do not compare prices. It's useless. Food was cheaper in USSR, any "luxury" - cars, radios etc was much more expencive, but how about the apparment rent? And medical care?

As for TV - it sucks everywhere     There is no official POW on oil prices story, no comments on it in major news. Miko, today I had to watch TV all day long (had to stay with Grandma) - there was nothing like you saw. But I admit that you could find such comments on Russian TV. I hope you understand that in the US there are some anti-Russian paranoid opinions too.

Lemma: Some people who left in 1990-1991 (actually the worst years, while I was speaking about mid-80s) have to persuade themself that everything was so bad here, and that's why they ran away (sorry). Usualy people who emigrated within last 5 years or in Brezhnev's time don't suffer from such things.

Sorry again    

Last question, Miko: which school did you go to in Khar'kov?

Damn keyboard swallows "t"s sometimes, so, please, insert them where nessesary  

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[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 09-29-2000).]

Offline cvb---

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« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2000, 01:33:00 PM »
Udie,

come on dude!   2 TV's and a car? What does that have to do with anything? Have you seen people living in trailer parks? Du-uh!

Or maybe I need to remind you of those rich Mexican guys picking crops in Texas? I saw those poor bastards in FLA.

America is a free country, just like most other countries, including Russia. But there's just way too many "absolutely necessary" limitations to this freedom (Equifax, FDA, etc.)

Oh, and BTW, how come this free country always has just one opinion on almost anything?   Sometimes PBS airs a desperate truth-seeker, but who cares about PBS?  

BTW, what do you do? Software developer? Computer magazine writer? Something that has to do with computers?  

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2000, 01:45:00 PM »
Lynx, I just understood it! You definetly have a good old Russian mentality!  

How much do you earn monthy, in bottles of vodka?

Hehe, EVERYTHING can be measured in vodka!

 

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Offline Udie

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« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2000, 01:54:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by cvb---:
Udie,

come on dude!   2 TV's and a car? What does that have to do with anything? Have you seen people living in trailer parks? Du-uh!

Or maybe I need to remind you of those rich Mexican guys picking crops in Texas? I saw those poor bastards in FLA.

America is a free country, just like most other countries, including Russia. But there's just way too many "absolutely necessary" limitations to this freedom (Equifax, FDA, etc.)

Oh, and BTW, how come this free country always has just one opinion on almost anything?   Sometimes PBS airs a desperate truth-seeker, but who cares about PBS?  

BTW, what do you do? Software developer? Computer magazine writer? Something that has to do with computers?  


 You'll get no argument out of me about the FDA, ATF, FCC, FAA all of the government burocracies they do chip away at our freedom, that was what I ment by more regulations in my earlier post.  My point is that we are still very free.  As much as the government tries to control our behavior it is still possible to be free.  You just have to act that way.

 Mexican workers come here and do one hell of a job here in Tx.  Most of them are illegals too I bet, but they come here and work and do the jobs that most Americans are "too good for".  There are a lot of 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican-American people here in Tx that are doing quite well for their selves.  They understand what hard work will do for you.  They all started at the bottom of the pile though making $2 a day back in the 70's.  They exercised the freedom of our country and are living the American dream.

 I am an architectural draftsman/designer and luckily the building business is BOOMING here in Tx. 9 short years ago I was nothing but a high school drop out. I didn't own a thing and didn't have a job, thankfuly I had parents that never lost faith in me and sent me to college when I was 22 yrs old. After almost 10 years of hard work I've put myself into a position where I can control my destiny, somewhat anyway.  My plan is that in another 10-15 years I'll be done with work and my money will work for me.  Then I'll be FREE for real  

 Now I wonder if that would have been possible in Russia?  That's not meant as a slam.  I don't think it would have happened there though....


Udie

Offline cvb---

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« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2000, 02:14:00 PM »
You are one lucky man   Good for you. I have friends from Schenectedy, NY. They have a totally different perspective on American prosperity and opportunities (GE closed a plant there and most of the city lost their jobs).

Actually, yes, college and school dropouts often times make it big in Russia   And that's the thing I don't like about it  

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2000, 02:43:00 PM »
 
Quote
And (for Dowding) BBC coverage is good but I've heard enough c**p from all those so called "experts" that keep popping up every time anything happens whether on BBC, ITN or Sky that I just treat anything I hear from "official" sources with a healthy doze of scepticism now. No way all the journalists reporting "unbiased".

Could you elaborate a bit, mate?   What do you mean by official? Government sources are like government sources anywhere - they are there to put forward the government's POV. As for the BBC, I've grown up in the UK and have been on the planet for 22 years. I like to think I have a good understanding of world events and use many sources to do so (including CNN). I have to say that the BBC is as unbiased as any other news service. It is paid for by the people, and if you know who Jeremy Paxman is (hehehe  ), you know the government never gets it easy. People would object very, very strongly if it did - the BBC has a very good reputation here in Britain (as you are probably aware). It's better than any newspaper when it comes to avoiding political bias (except maybe the Grauniad or Independent, which are ok I guess).

I know its hard for people who only ever had one official news organ to understand that the BBC is not the 'mouthpiece' of the government, even though it is not a private organisation.

A journalist can never be truly unbiased - but many value their professional integrity above anything else, and have risked life and limb to get the 'truth', however elusive. Many of these journalists work for the BBC.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Dnil

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« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2000, 05:10:00 PM »
I would suspect people from NY would have a different view, my god those people are damn near taxed to death.  Doesnt NY have one of the highest if not the highest tax rates in the nation?

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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2000, 05:23:00 PM »
Dowding, it is exactly what I meant: THINK!   They always lie: and it's the only way for them to survive. Media, authorities, Party, advertisement, statistics - all of them. Regardless to where they come from.

Another question to Miko: If you were so brainwashed - what made you - as well as many other people in USSR - emigrate?

Udie, freedom is a very relative thing. In many ways I was much more free in the USSR in 1989 then you are now. At least many Americans on flightsim boards make me think so   And NOW I am free as a bird, while you live in a cage.

Dowding, you visited USSR in 1990? Again: it was the worst time for my country since maybe 1919.

Friday night, I am at my friend's drinking beer %) Maybe I can't explain myself now   Sorry  

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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2000, 06:31:00 PM »
Boroda - In some ways what you say is true. There are lies in the organisations you name. But here's maybe the key difference. They are not all lying for the same cause, unlike the various agencies in the Soviet Union.

I was only 11 years old when I went to the USSR. Looking back at what happened in the few years afterwards I wish I'd been older, so that I could appreciate and understand what I saw to a greater degree.

I visited all the landmarks of Moscow and Leningrad. I still remember the feeling I had when I entered the Lenin's tomb. The silent reverence and the way the guards stood so attentive to anything we did. I haven't really experienced anything like it since. I know it sounds melodramatic, but maybe it was the feeling of history. You could sense how the people outside revered this man.

I remember the black market; putting US dollars into a cigarrette box in exchange for a babushka doll. I bought a model of 'Aurora' and it hangs on my wall now (not for any politcal reason - just cos it looks good   ). People wanting to buy our trainers and jeans. A man with a gun on the train to Leningrad outside our cabin. Sorry Boroda, but the weird food   . McDonalds and Pizza Hut with barefooted beggars on the street outside. Meeting kids our age in an English school in Moscow - one of the older lads taught some of them to play "Great Balls of Fire." An amazing visit - gave me my taste for travelling   .

When things haven't been going well for Russia, I've often thought of the kids my own age I met there and how they are getting on. I just wish I had kept in touch with them. I simply hope things have changed for the better for them.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-29-2000).]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.