Author Topic: Saw on russian news...  (Read 2030 times)

Offline miko2d

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Saw on russian news...
« on: September 27, 2000, 12:51:00 PM »
 You may be amused by their version of history.

 USA, as the biggest oil buyer, agreed with Saudi Arabia, as the biggest oil seller, to drive the price of oil down. Gues why - only in order to bankrupt the Soviet Union that depended on the sale of oil for currency.
 Never mind that US and the rest of the world  could use the cheap oil themselves, or that the proceeds from the Soviet oil sales went directly to purchase grain in the same USA, or that Saudi Arabia is in no way a US puppet state and even if it were, does not have that much influence on oil prices...

 It gets better. When the Soviet Union collapsed, US decided to revert back to high oil prices - why buy something cheap, if you can pay much more! Asking their pal Saudi Arabia to just raise prices and make a fortune seemed too complex a plan, so that is why US attacked innocent Iraqis - to disrupt the world oil production and raise the prices. Never mind that Iraq is not a major producer and shortly after the gulf war the oil prices dropped to the record lows despite Iraq embargo, or that US and Europe would lose and Russia would profit from the increasing oil prices.

 And it is just mentioned as a matter of fact on the major Russian news channel, an official mouthpiece of the government!

 You would think nothing has changed in my former motherland - the US is still the enemy who has nothing better to do then spend all its time trying to destroy their beloved country just out of spite and fear.

miko

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[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 09-27-2000).]

funked

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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2000, 01:10:00 PM »
It's all true.  

The US also planted all those "bodies" in those fake "mass graves" all over Kosovo.

And of course the US is once again interfering in Yugoslavia.  Can you believe those crazy Yanks, crying foul over that election, just because the other guy got more votes than Milosehitler.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2000, 01:40:00 PM »
Miko, what channel exactly did you see it on? RTR?

Maybe you misunderstood something? It sounds like a nationalistic hallucination vrom "Zavtra" or modern "Pravda"...

But what is going on in Russia is getting stranger and stranger... Putin's biography is to be studied at schools in SPb! Just like Lenin's in good old times! But what is going on in media now is not as frightening as what happened during the Yugoslavian war: that time TV looked almost like back in 70s...

Funked, when did you see those graves in the news for the last time? AFAIK there were many of them. With Serbian bodies... Something really unpleasant for Western media, eh?

And it's Serbs who blow up their churches? I guess that glorious KFOR soldiers try to gently persuade them not to do so?...



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Offline RAM

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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2000, 01:49:00 PM »
and WTF has to do the poor Saw with this ?

  (hehe j/k dont worry I udnerstood everything  )

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2000, 02:13:00 PM »
 I saw it on RTN here in Brooklyn - they re-broadcast the russian programs. I don't remember the program, it covered three issues over an hour. One of them was the Russia's problems with oil. The gist of it is that when oil prices go down, Russia suffers, when the prices go up, it suffers even more because of explosion in corruption.
 The US involvement was not even a topic here and not discussed or even condemned. It was just mentioned as a part of a brief review how prices changed over the last 15 years. Nothing exiting, just to refresh the viewer's memory. Like a common knowlege.
 Like a coverage of celebration of the universary of the Kulikov Battle I saw the same day. Russians under Dmitriy Donskoy defeated the Mongols there and got rid of the enslavement. Also a common knowlege.

 It just took Mongols four generations to realize they were defeated there and pack their things and leave Russia. Probably because thet were slow...

 The patriotic archeologists still have trouble locating the graves of the russian warriors. After all 150,000 russians defeated 300,000 mongols and almost all died themselves. Must be half a million bodies. Great mistery. Of course I read a study in the soviet press abaout 20 years ago proving that most likely about 12,000 russian knights battled 18,000 mongols and when victorious, took about 600 own dead with them to be buried properly. That was based on the physical size of the field (tiny) and throughput of the known number of bridges over which the russian army crossed the river in just a few hours.

 "Russia - a great country with unpredictable past."
 M. Szvanetsky.

miko

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2000, 03:15:00 PM »
Miko - sounds like Russia is catching up with the US in one way - invention of dubious conspiracy theories  .

Boroda, I understand your feelings over Kosovo (given here and in other topics), but surely you don't believe that KFOR is 'evil', that they are there to antagonise Russia or humiliate the Serbs? I think they are there to help, to stop the killing and I 100% agree with the deployment of British troops. In other posts you have suggested that the Serbs could do the peace keeping; I just can't see how you can think this as logical solution to the problem. We all saw pictures of how the Serb local government was involved in the (widespread) torture and killing of dissidents - you cannot justify that no matter what the KLA were doing (and I appreciate they were not exactly whiter than white).

Intervention by the West may have had dubious intentions in the past, and they might be accused of lethargy when it comes to action, but in Kosovo I believe they have done a 'good' job.

As for Milosevic, I don't see how anyone can defend him for anything, considering his actions during the Bosnian conflict, regardless of Kosovo. He is very far from being a 'great' man, never mind a 'great' leader. He's led his people from poverty to destitution and political isolation in a few short years.

I can't see how you can accuse our press of bias - just look at how the Russian press reported Chechnya. The BBC is one of best news reporting organisations in the world, easily on a par with CNN.

Interesting to hear from you again, Boroda  .
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Udie

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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2000, 03:16:00 PM »
 Serious question here for any Russians or people who were raised in Russia/USSR .

 
 What did they say about the USA in your schools growing up?  I was always taught that the Russian people weren't diferent from Americans, just that their government was tyranical.  Basicly I grew up thinking that the Russian people were all prisoners.  Is/was there any truth to that or was it all American propaganda?

 The one thing that worries me the most today is a return to the cold war with Russia, or a new one with China.  Reading news like the news in your post scares me. That's the kind of thing that can lead exactly to a cold war.  Do / did the people believe propaganda?


Udie

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2000, 04:07:00 PM »
   
Quote
Originally posted by Udie:
Basicly I grew up thinking that the Russian people were all prisoners.  Is/was there any truth to that or was it all American propaganda?
 Do / did the people believe propaganda?
Udie

 We were prisoners, yes so the statement is true. But it is irrelevant. We did not have a concept of propaganda - it was the only thing we knew. Not only we did not know about other points of view, we had no idea other points of view were possible. Like a blind person who never hears about a sight.
 So we trusted what we were constantly told. That capitalists/sionists headed by americans started all the wars. That the workers in western countries live like slaves in abysmal conditions and are on the verge of revolt. That our economy is more productive and we are overtaking the US economically and the only reason we did not do so yet is because we were ruined by the War and US was not, and that US is robbing the third world countries while we protect and help them.
 But the outcome was predetermined. Besides our advanced political system, we had all the advantages of the country where steam engine, locomotive, radio and most of the other things were invented...

 There were no alternative newspapers, journalism of any kind. Very few people felt the need to listen to the western short-wave broadcasts.

 So no crash, catastrophy or problem was ever reported. The war in Afganistan was unknown for a few years.
 Long dispance phone calls while reasonably priced, took a few hours to arrange and in most cities could be done only from the special office. People did mot move much from city to city, so you could not get much through the word of mouth, even if Big Brother allowed such kind of talks, which it did not. Nothing drastic - just a call to the office and a conversation. A siberian camp only for those who persisted.

 Access to the rest of the worls was ceverely restricted even to the rest of the Soviet Bloc countries. Almost non-existant. And the people there only went in groups and were warned to the concequences of spreading capitalist provocations upon return.

 Incidentally, it was difficult to get an SW radio in USSR and the broadcasts were jammed.
 Even when people got them, few people believed them because they were completery at odds with all our world.

 Of course we got full coverage of all slums, catastrophies, wars, strikes and demostrations happening in the rest of the world.

 Voice of America broadcasted on May 15th that on April 26 an Chernobyl Electric plant blew up with more radiation then Nagasaki bomb and is poisoning the europe? What a load of lies, if something like that happened, wouldn't we know of that?

 The only exceptions were jews who had some contacts via mail with relatives outside after the Iron Curtain was lifted. Nothing political was ever in the mail but it was obvilus from them that regular working pople live normal lives, actually quite spectacular by our standards - completely at odds with the common knowlege.
 That is the reason why jews were restricted in many areas - they really were not trustworthy to the communist government, not because someone up there hated them.
  The jews kept quied about what they knew, even from their own children, lest we get into trouble by saying something...
 Of course a healthy dose of antisemitism encouraged among the people by the government just made sure that if some jew would say something, he would not be trusted. Nothing personal, you understand - quite a few people up top were jews, despite all of the restrictions.

 In short we would have fought you evil capitalists tooth and nail and would have all died in the cause of the world communism so that our great-great-grandchildred could live free and prosperous.

 Even now many (most) people there hate US and blame it for everything that happens to their country. Many people there cannot allow themselves to believe the truth because it means that all their suffering were for naught and their future is hopeless because there is nobody to blame for it, so no single cause to overcome.

 For all practical purposes, you can treat each individual russian as a misguided soul that can be easily converted if only shown the real american life even fir a day. They are good people who suffered a lot. You would not believe a transformation happening when you lead one through the regular neighborhood with a single family-houses and visit a supermarket. If US government provided free transportation to all willing russians for a week-long visit to the us, 99% would convert, go back and set their country straight.
 You can also treat the russian people as a whole as an unpredictable threat and vicious  and deadly enemy if it ever comes to conflict.

 Personally, if it comes to that, I would cry while looking through the sight of my M16 at my former countryman.  

 Does that answer your question?

miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 09-27-2000).]

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2000, 06:53:00 PM »
Miko,

Glad you made it out. Hope things go well for you and yours.

Mav

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 09-27-2000).]
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Offline Udie

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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2000, 07:21:00 PM »
 Miko,

 Yes! Glad you made it out and are now free.  Personaly I think the USA dropped the ball after the brake up of the USSR.  We were in a position to realy help your people out of their situation. Instead we set up the IMF and gave cash that ended up going directly to the Russian Mob.  I haven't worried about war with russia since the gulf war, but this Putkin guy scares me.  Hopefuly it will never come to that...

Udie

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2000, 08:02:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick:
Miko,
Glad you made it out. Hope things go well for you and yours.

 Thanks, guys. Not only the last ten years were the best and happiest years of my life, but I owe it only to myself (also my thanks US government for letting me run my life to the best of my abilities.). Of course many americans were ready to help me. Though I never needed their help, I knew I could count on it and I am gratefull. The whole thing was extremely profitable to the US as well.

 I consider myself an atheist but unlike many other "atheists" I never ever had a wish to ask/pray to God for anything or any urge to refer to him even in the direst circumstances.    
 Nevertheless, on a couple of occasions, just in case He is really there (never proved to the contrary) and is somehow involved, I issued my thanks.

 Now if I could only make my freaking Juno DSL work properly, I could die a happy man!

miko

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2000, 08:25:00 PM »
 
Quote
I think the USA dropped the ball after the brake up of the USSR....
[/B]

 Not sure anything could have been done. The country tried to jump from slavery/feudalism/serfdom straight into democracy/capitalism. That process took centuries in the west and was quite painfull.
 The crime and corruption was ready for the new conditions and took advantage of that. But most of the populations were not ready for democracy.
 One of the worst legacies of the communist regime is complete unfamilarity of the most of the population with making any kind of choices. Everything was predetermined and, however treadbare, guaranteed. Never had to look for work (no matter how useless). Never had to be homeless - one room per family or dormitory for singles. Never died of hunger. The healthcare was guaranteed and free. Of course people died for the lack of simple treatments available everywhere in the world, but we did not know about their existance. So nobody was upset about that. No organ transplants, no cancer treatment, no MRI, no chance for an premature born child to survive. 80 percent of women having afterbirth complications because of infection . All that was normal

 What they needed IMHO was the monarchy. One guy - autoritarian but permanent. Interested in the long-term stability, not in ripping off whatever he can, stuffing it into Swiss accounts and running away before he gets caught. Not interested in making expedient deals with corrupt politicians, criminals, etc. in order to win the next elections.

 Then once in a couple of generations population grew prosperous and educated, able to live in a competitive world, they would peacefully and unnoticeably convert to whatever they wanted if they wanted. Not much is heard about oppression of european countries by their monarchs, is it?
 Quite a few russians support the idea of constitutional monarchy and almost all of them are disillusioned in democracy, free market and capitalism, nay - hate them - thinking that what they've just experienced are those things! I would be too if that was all I saw.

miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 09-27-2000).]

Offline Saintaw

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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2000, 02:07:00 AM »
It was not me, I was never there, no one has ever seen me...

<hd&r>


Saw
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2000, 04:27:00 AM »
Miko:

nice stuff., always good to read an insider's view.

I grew up in Sweden, with the Big Bear neighbor ready to attack from the Baltic states. To me as a kid, the Soviet Union was a huge mass of unknown determined bitter faces that were very secretive. Dinnae have a real grasp of politics back then, other than they were bad, and the Europeans and the US good. The Soviet people, I was told, lived in bad conditions, and didn't even know it. My father gave me Orwell's Animal Farm and said "here, this is written by an ex communist, and this explains Russia".

So I spent my teens thinking "what the hell happened to the Snowballs?" in regards to the Soviet Union question.

There were lots of propaganda both ways, but it seems to me there was more truth to the western than to the Soviet one.

The Russian people will e back, they're capable of going to hell and back without being destroyed, as they've demonstrated. But there are some internall problems the rest of the west cannot help fix; much like in African nations.

m,iko, your experiences and thoughts mirror what I've thought it'd be like. Scary, really.

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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2000, 10:08:00 AM »
Miko, sorry, I have to ask a few questions:  

So, you emigrated 10 years ago? Exactly - when? How old were you? Your hmmm... social status in the USSR? Where did you live?

About me: 28 now, born in Leningrad, living in Moscow since 1982. From an officer's family, father is a retired colonel, 44 years in the Army. Studied in English-speaking school, then in Moscow High Technical College (Bauman's). Now I am an engineer in Academy of Science. You can call me "mazhor" if you wish  

I visited US in 1989. I was impressed, but I never felt like what you described.

Hard to buy a SW reciever? Foreign radio jammed? Where did you live!? Even in Moscow, with heaviest jammers in the country I could listen to BBC or Svoboda in Russian even with a cheap 50-rouble reciever. It always was a matter of your wish.

Propaganda was everything we got, no doubt. But in my social circle (as well as in other parts of society except for people who couldn't buy a SW reciever spending all the money on cheap porto) there always was a strong doubt, and a nessesity to get the information from other side. BTW, Voice of America programms usualy described material values (cars, homes, radios, luxury) without giving an idea what are they really worth. Pretty cheap, don't you think so?

Chernobyl accident was reported in morning papers on the next day. Don't repeat this roadkill again. What BBC and VoA said was ridiculous: in the middle of May they said that 100000 were killed. We were measuring radiation level at our school's physics lab every day, we even checked the radiation counter because we were afraid it lies. I was 14 that time and remember it all quite good.

Afghan war? Just go and ask people who returned from "behind the river". Believing in communism? Look around, everything gets worse with each year. Turn on your brain!

If you dare to THINK - propaganda is useless.

Or maybe you really had that famous bears in the streets of your city?... Many people who left in early 90s start to remember them  

BTW, your vision of Russian TV news is a little paranoid. That's all I can say. Just imagine what a Russian "modern communist" should say about many US TV programms  
 http://www.cultrevolution.ru:8101/riot_music/06.%20destroy_america.mp3

This is an example of another paranoid point of view. Some people think so here, but could you expect anything else? And you have to admit that US is not a friend to Russia. Sad...

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With respect,
    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 09-28-2000).]