Author Topic: Male activists want say in unplanned pregnancy (Read 1322 times)

wrag · « **Reply #45 on:** March 15, 2006, 06:32:22 AM »

One womans take on what we've been discussing............

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2006/03/13/tide-turns-in-the-gender-wars/

lazs2 · « **Reply #46 on:** March 15, 2006, 08:52:17 AM »

phoocat.... let's leave abortion out of it then.

What is left is that it took two people to make the child. What would you do with this child?

Let's also leave out trickery... if the male was somehow tricked into thinking that he could not father the child or, druggted and raped... that is another matter.

Where does that leave us? Both parties have had equal say in creating a child that needs care.

We can consider adoption.. that would place the burden of raising the child they created on someone else... Who would decide tho?

Would it be wise to simply have the court order the person with the most to offer, for them to raise the child and the other parent help as best they can.

Certainly... it is not the childs fault that one of his parents wishes to not support him.

If the father wanted to be fair he would offer to marry the woman and to care for the child they created in that way. If the woman refused then that should be taken into consideration.

Last divorce I had..... I had joint custody with the ex. I kept our daughter half the time and she the other half with no child support ( I was after all, providing half the support).

This to me is the ideal solution.... you either marry, stay married or... you commit to raising the child jointly.

lazs

phookat · « **Reply #47 on:** March 15, 2006, 11:44:23 AM »

wrag-- Good find on that article. I wish mainstream media would pick up on the considerations described there.

lazs-- Sure we can discuss the no-fault post-birth-disagreement problem. It is not the same situation as the article Gunslinger posted, but we can discuss it. As I said above I think a 50/50 split of financial responsibility is fair. Allowing the same options and outcomes to both parents is fair. Even an uneven split based on means (as was the case in your experience) can be fair, if it truly applies to the woman as much as the man. But this is probably not the case in general. For example, as the article wrag found points out, if a woman wants to put the baby up for adoption and the guy doesn't, the guy can take custody of the kid but the woman will prolly get out of paying any child support. Not so if it was the other way around. If the playing field is truly level, what we have now works in the case of no deception.

But the nuances we are discussing are in the noise compared to the ridiculous injustice being brought to light in this guy's court case...which legally protects (nay, actually *promotes*) the behavior of this lying woman.

lazs2 · « **Reply #48 on:** March 15, 2006, 02:31:19 PM »

I will be willing to discuss any of the points. Adoption should only be legal if both parties agree.

I would also agree that in the vast majority of the cases men are treated unfairly but... they do have half the responsibility. I simply don't think that abortion or adoption should be the sole decision of one parent nor, should simply saying you are for it absolve you of responsibilty.

lazs

Sandman · « **Reply #49 on:** March 15, 2006, 02:52:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by dmf

2) NOONE should be able to use abortion as a form of birth control! ( no I'm not an activist).

Abortion IS a form of birth control.

dmf · « **Reply #50 on:** March 15, 2006, 03:50:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by phookat
dmf-- I thought we were having a discussion but you seem to have ignored pretty much everything in my post. Take a look, might be something there worth thinking about...or maybe not I guess. Anyway, you say "he might have a right since she totally lied to him"...well, really, I think "might" is far too weak a term. He *definitely* should have this right since she absolutely defrauded him. He doesn't have this right and he's fighting to get it. What sucks about this is that he is being absolutely lambasted in the press, both lib and con. "Deadbeat dad" spin on everything. More evidence of mindless sensationalist journalism.

On the abortion point...once again, this is not about abortion, or forcing abortions. Even if abortions were totally banned, the issue of fair delegation of responsibility would remain, which is what this case is about. On a side note though...I have noticed that, when the "every sperm is sacred" conundrum is brought up, the extreme pro-lifers fall strangely silent.

On the religious issue... yes that notion is very religious and again no there's nothing wrong with that. A "less religious" person might believe that God created the universe, flipped the On switch, and then let it run without any interference. The idea that God gives personalized individual gifts to 6 billion people in this generation alone (as well as 100 billion individual gifts to other animals, and 500 quingigillion individual gifts to bacteria) is about as religious as it gets.

Ok I'll give men that one, if a woman defrauds a man by saying theres no way she can get pregnant then yea, let the man have the right to say yea or nay.
As far as the religious aspect, I couldn't care less about that, I gave up on God and religion 2 years ago.
I read your post pookat, I just didn't reply to it cause if I do I'm gonna open a whole new can or worms for the fishermen on this thread.
I really think that "some" men want the rights just so they won't have to support the child, I kow if my ex had the chance thats what he'd do.
I'm not telling sombody I can't "get pregnant right now" cause even on the pill, a woman can get pegnant on the pill.
I don't need walfare to support my daughter, I make enough money to get by without leaching off society, and I don't have any respect for women who lie to men or leach off welfare cause they can.

Curval · « **Reply #51 on:** March 15, 2006, 03:58:07 PM »

I got a girl pregnant. We were in a long distance relationship and met up on a business trip I took.

A month later she called me to tell me what happened. A month after that....I married her. At the time I was accepting responsibility and didn't really want to get married.

Best decision I ever made. Six months later my first son was born. He had a mommy AND a daddy.

My wife and I had the odd experience of falling in love after we got married.

Thrawn · « **Reply #52 on:** March 15, 2006, 05:05:59 PM »

I have the same attitude Curval. Hardly a week goes by where I don't have to marry some women because I knocked her up.

Curval · « **Reply #53 on:** March 15, 2006, 05:59:48 PM »

Good for you man. Spread the joy.

wrag · « **Reply #54 on:** March 15, 2006, 06:18:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by dmf
Ok I'll give men that one, if a woman defrauds a man by saying theres no way she can get pregnant then yea, let the man have the right to say yea or nay.
As far as the religious aspect, I couldn't care less about that, I gave up on God and religion 2 years ago.
I read your post pookat, I just didn't reply to it cause if I do I'm gonna open a whole new can or worms for the fishermen on this thread.
I really think that "some" men want the rights just so they won't have to support the child, I kow if my ex had the chance thats what he'd do.
I'm not telling sombody I can't "get pregnant right now" cause even on the pill, a woman can get pegnant on the pill.
I don't need walfare to support my daughter, I make enough money to get by without leaching off society, and I don't have any respect for women who lie to men or leach off welfare cause they can.

Hmmmm..........

Think we need to get some things sorted out here.

1st point........ if it is the child of a specific male AND the child was conceived WITHOUT some form of deception by the mother/female then YES it's his child he should SHARE in the child upbringing with funds and be a part of the childs life. (So your Ex would still have to pay)

2nd point.... there are males that will happily support or even take a child that the mother instead elected to abort. These males are not HAPPY!

3rd point... any charges of domestic violence or abuse should be PROVEN before the courts make decissions!

4th point.... when the amount of support is set by the courts it should be realistic and leave the male (or female) enough to live on.

5th point.... IF it is at anytime PROVEN that the child is NOT the males, that male should be releaved of ALL responsibilities for that child with the understanding that he may continue such responsibilites should he so desire. Should the male continue by choice then any responsibilities taken up MUST be continued there after with all perttenant rights instated. (What I mean here is some males after a period of time rasing a child reach a point where in their heart the child is theirs no matter what!)

I guess I could go on but all I'm really trying to say here is things need to be EQUAL under the law which IMHO the now are NOT.

lazs2 · « **Reply #55 on:** March 16, 2006, 09:14:57 AM »

I did the same... married the woman. It did not work out but...

reality is... it did work out. my now grown son is the most important thing in my life next to my daughter and grand daughter.

It was rough going through the relationships and divorces and money issues but.... having those children made it all seem like a laughable trifle.

lazs

dmf · « **Reply #56 on:** March 16, 2006, 09:07:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by wrag
Hmmmm..........

Think we need to get some things sorted out here.

1st point........ if it is the child of a specific male AND the child was conceived WITHOUT some form of deception by the mother/female then YES it's his child he should SHARE in the child upbringing with funds and be a part of the childs life. (So your Ex would still have to pay)

2nd point.... there are males that will happily support or even take a child that the mother instead elected to abort. These males are not HAPPY!

3rd point... any charges of domestic violence or abuse should be PROVEN before the courts make decissions!

4th point.... when the amount of support is set by the courts it should be realistic and leave the male (or female) enough to live on.

5th point.... IF it is at anytime PROVEN that the child is NOT the males, that male should be releaved of ALL responsibilities for that child with the understanding that he may continue such responsibilites should he so desire. Should the male continue by choice then any responsibilities taken up MUST be continued there after with all perttenant rights instated. (What I mean here is some males after a period of time rasing a child reach a point where in their heart the child is theirs no matter what!)

I guess I could go on but all I'm really trying to say here is things need to be EQUAL under the law which IMHO the now are NOT.

1st point... The only thing I want from my ex is to be left alone.
His idea of child support is a phone call to ask if I'm remarried yet so teh man can adopt my daugher, so he can be free. ( like I ever reciece any child support from him anyway )

2nd point... I wouldn't know theres no way I could ever abort a child.

3rd... point Doemstic violence, or abuse. Does that include mental abuse? Not all violence or abuse is physical.

4th point... I agree, takeing sombody to the cleaners because you want a new car is just wrong.

5th point... Alos if its proven that a male is not teh father, and he has been paying child support he should be reinbursed in full.

lazs2 · « **Reply #57 on:** March 17, 2006, 10:00:01 AM »

I think as humans we all want fairness. Lets face it... deception is not acceptable.

It also takes two to make a child. The man has at least as much responsibility.

He should also have as much say in raising said child along with the finacial responsibility.... both should share the raising of the child...

obviously, it would be best if marriage were in the cards but... barring that, and given both parties are sane.... joint custody is the answer. There is no child support involved with joint custody.

Want to move? fine... leave the child and send money. Too harsh? no.... making a child and not careing for it is harsh.

lazs

wrag · « **Reply #58 on:** March 17, 2006, 11:33:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by dmf
1st point... The only thing I want from my ex is to be left alone.
His idea of child support is a phone call to ask if I'm remarried yet so teh man can adopt my daugher, so he can be free. ( like I ever reciece any child support from him anyway )

2nd point... I wouldn't know theres no way I could ever abort a child.

3rd... point Doemstic violence, or abuse. Does that include mental abuse? Not all violence or abuse is physical.

4th point... I agree, takeing sombody to the cleaners because you want a new car is just wrong.

5th point... Alos if its proven that a male is not teh father, and he has been paying child support he should be reinbursed in full.

Your pardon, mental abuse is included in my statement YES. Mental abuse can be in many ways as just as bad as physical.

dmf · « **Reply #59 on:** March 17, 2006, 08:57:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by wrag
Your pardon, mental abuse is included in my statement YES. Mental abuse can be in many ways as just as bad as physical.

Thank you I just wanted to make sure