Dan - The 'E' wing

[Kev367th]

Remember the discussion about the 'e' wing and the .303 panels?

Dug up some more stuff -

3 Versions of the 'e' wing -

1) Wings built as 'e' wings.
2) 'c' wings converted to 'e' wings at factories.
3) 'c' wings converted to 'e' wings with field mods.

I would assume  #2 and #3 would be the ones still having the .303 panels.
The pic you posted showing the bottles in the .303 bays, they were oxygen tanks as you surmised.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Remember the discussion about the 'e' wing and the .303 panels?

Dug up some more stuff -

3 Versions of the 'e' wing -

1) Wings built as 'e' wings.
2) 'c' wings converted to 'e' wings at factories.
3) 'c' wings converted to 'e' wings with field mods.

I would assume  #2 and #3 would be the ones still having the .303 panels.
The pic you posted showing the bottles in the .303 bays, they were oxygen tanks as you surmised.

It's strange how there isn't really a definitive answer on the wings for Spits.

There is a book written about ML407 a restored Spit T9 that was originally a Spit LFIX with a Universal wing.  It's better known now as the "Grace Spitfire".  The book suggests that there was a factory approved and tested modification that had the 'c' wing or Universal wing with the .5 mg in the inner bay and the 20mm in the outer bay and that ML407 was one of those so modified.  The pilot and ground crew of that particular Spit also insist that this was in use as early as October 43, although the set up wasn't tested by A &AEE until November 43.

The authors of the book did dig up an order from the Air Staff requiring all Spits issued to 132 and 135 wings have the 'e' wing armament and gyro gunsights as of July 25, 1944.  That seems to coincide better with the photo evidence as the 'e' wing Spits show up in photos post D-Day from everything I can see.

The photos in the book don't ever give a good look at the wing of ML407 though so I don't know what to believe on that.  The other comment made is that the Spits with 'e' wings that still have the openings for the 303's that are blanked off are in fact those 'c' Universal wings modified that way.

Yet the photo I posted with the oxygen bottles are bubble top XVIs so the panals were still there at that point and they are clearly 'e' wings from the start.

Ultimately though the 'e' wing designation stood for the armament set up wheras there was no 'c' or 'b' wing designation for the Spits after the Spit V as it was assumed they were "Universal" wings up until the 'e' wing designation for the .5mg and 2 20mms.

Good fun to play detective on it though

[Kev367th]

Well what I dug up suggests the 1st purpose built 'e' wings didn't appear until the XVIII.
All the rest were either field mods, universal to 'e' armament (i.e. ML407), or rebuilt at the factory from universal to 'e' wing standards with the stiffened spar and strengthening, for example the XVI's and XIV's.

Also found Jonnie Johnson used an 'e' armament Spit D-Day on both JE-J and JE-J jr .

Wouldn't be surprised if the 'e' armament (as opposed to 'e' wing) appeared well before July 44.

e.g. MK356 originally built as an LF IXe was delivered Mar 44?
ML417 built as LF IXe took part in D-Day.
A lot of LF IXe's are mentioned as April 44.

RE:- 'c' wing - yup, even heard that IX pilots referred to Merlin 61 IX's as IXA's, Merlin 66 IX's as IXB's, just to further confuse things lol.

[Neil Stirling1]

The MK XIV was released to service with 2 20mm and 2 .50"  2nd May 1944.

Neil.

[Kev367th]

CC Neil tks.

What we're trying to work out is the LF IXe.

Seen built/delivery dates of, at the earliest Mar/Apr 1944 (see previous post).
But there were also field mods i.e. the "Grace Spit" that are believed to have been field modded late Summer 1943.

Main one I'm after is when the IX recieved the 'e' armament (not neccessarily the 'e' wing), which at the moment is looking like slightly before the XIV.
Field mods (universal 'c' wing with 'e' armament) seem to have been mostly carried out by 2TAF.

[Guppy35]

Only thing I'd say Kev, is find the photo evidence first.  I still only see the cannons in the outer wing bays post D-Day.  A restored Spit with an E wing might just be because it was fitted with that wing later not for D-Day as in ML417.

The rounded tail doesn't neccesarily mean the E wing was a field mod.  The E wings were showing up in July 44 from everything I can see.  I'd personally need to see a combat shot of an earlier Spit IX with an E wing to believe it.  And I just haven't seen one.

The ones in the book on ML407 look to be 20mm in the inner bays despite what the book is saying

[Kev367th]

Johnnie Johnson 1944 while commanding 144 wing. (Assuming MK392)



Looks like 20s and 50s to me (temporary cover over the 50 ports? Def not the usual hemispherical plug).

If 20s and 303s shouldn't the 20s be in the inner bay?

CC on the rounded tail - should have phrased it as the early IXe's seem to be mainly rounded tails.

I suppose 'e' wing would be incorrect - They would still be universal 'c' wings, just with 'e' type armament.

Trying to find out for a project I am starting for AH2 skins, want to do his career aircraft -
Mk 1?
Mk Vb (need more info on both these)
Mk F IXc - EN398  - JE*J (red or green maple leaf?)
Mk LF IXe - MK329 - JE*J JR (would be on the XVI, prob is pointy rudder.)
Mk XIVe - MV268 - JE*J

Seen various sources that say the 1944 MK392 (JE*J) and MK329 (JE*J JR) were both fitted with 20s and 50s prior to D-Day.

As you said surprising that considering how much is known about the Spits, the wings seem to have a lot of grey areas.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Johnnie Johnson 1944 while commanding 144 wing. (Assuming MK392)



Looks like 20s and 50s to me (temporary cover over the 50 ports? Def not the usual hemispherical plug).

If 20s and 303s shouldn't the 20s be in the inner bay?

CC on the rounded tail - should have phrased it as the early IXe's seem to be mainly rounded tails.

I suppose 'e' wing would be incorrect - They would still be universal 'c' wings, just with 'e' type armament.

Trying to find out for a project I am starting for AH2 skins, want to do his career aircraft -
Mk 1?
Mk Vb (need more info on both these)
Mk F IXc - EN398  - JE*J (red or green maple leaf?)
Mk LF IXe - MK329 - JE*J JR (would be on the XVI, prob is pointy rudder.)
Mk XIVe - MV268 - JE*J

Seen various sources that say the 1944 MK392 (JE*J) and MK329 (JE*J JR) were both fitted with 20s and 50s prior to D-Day.

As you said surprising that considering how much is known about the Spits, the wings seem to have a lot of grey areas.

Just looking at the image, the D-Day stripes are lower wing only so it's July 44 still.  It's definately an "e" wing.  

I don't think the rounded tail is connected at all to this.  I've posted this one before but it's a good example of a clipped "e' wing Spit LFIX with rounded tail and it's 1945 time just off the production line.

As for Johnnie Johnson's aircraft.  Do you have "Spitfire-The Canadians"?  Good photo of JEJs early IX in there as well as a profile of JEJ Jr.  If you don't have it, I'll scan em and post em.

The Fighter Collection Spit XIV is painted as JEJ.  His was a bubble top at the end of the war.

Here's a profile I did of a Spit Vb that Johnson flew with 616 Squadron shortly after Douglas Bader went down.  The photo of Johnson in it shows up often.  "Bader's Bus Company Still Running" is on the cowling.  And it has the nice transition scheme with the early roundels and the gray/green camo.

[Kev367th]

Thanks for the profile Dan.

Looking back at the image of Johnson on the wing:
I don't think you can say the Invasion Stripes are lower only, they are very worn at the leading edge and you can't see the uppers.
Obvioulsy though they have been on a while, so unlikely to be June.

Still doesn't help when he got the 'e' armament. Various sources state they were a field mod that was fitted prior to D-Day, but they don't say how much before.

Still finding references to Spits rolling off the line April 44 with the 'e' armament in a modified universal 'c' wing, almost all in the MK / ML serial number range.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Thanks for the profile Dan.

Looking back at the image of Johnson on the wing:
I don't think you can say the Invasion Stripes are lower only, they are very worn at the leading edge and you can't see the uppers.
Obvioulsy though they have been on a while, so unlikely to be June.

Still doesn't help when he got the 'e' armament. Various sources state they were a field mod that was fitted prior to D-Day, but they don't say how much before.

Still finding references to Spits rolling off the line April 44 with the 'e' armament in a modified universal 'c' wing, almost all in the MK / ML serial number range.

The toughie is when they got the E-Wing birds to the squadrons.  They may have been coming off the line, but that also means off to a maintenence unit for additional work and then to the squadrons so it becomes how much time was in between.

I'd just feel better seeing photo evidence of a May or June E wing Spit.  Obviously a photo of a full D-Day striped E wing bird would do the trick as the  full stripes were only on for a short time.

I've looked through all my stuff and all I can find are the partial D-Day stripes which makes it July 44.  Throw in the XIVe's arriving at 91 in July and it just makes me think that's when the combat intro was.

I'd be more then happy to be proved wrong

[Squire]

According to 2nd TAF by Chris Shores, the 1st E wing Spit IX squadrons were not deployed untill June 1944.

There was a conversion kit apparently, for the LF IXs with the 303s, but they were coming off the factoy floor with E wings after mid 44.

Guppy already posted the photo of the E wing spit with the 303 bay, it looks as though the bay was kept, with the cover, but was used for something else, as I recall.

I have yet to see a E wing without the "303 panels". I think they were kept and used for another purpose.

As to wether a Spit in question was converted or built as an E wing I don't think makes much difference, other than just for sake of interest, it had the exact same armament.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Squire
According to 2nd TAF by Chris Shores, the 1st E wing Spit IX squadrons were not deployed untill June 1944.

There was a conversion kit apparently, for the LF IXs with the 303s, but they were coming off the factoy floor with E wings after mid 44.

Guppy already posted the photo of the E wing spit with the 303 bay, it looks as though the bay was kept, with the cover, but was used for something else, as I recall.

I have yet to see a E wing without the "303 panels". I think they were kept and used for another purpose.

As to wether a Spit in question was converted or built as an E wing I don't think makes much difference, other than just for sake of interest, it had the exact same armament.

Apparently the first true 'e' wings without the .303 panels didn't appear until the XVIII, the rest were all converted universal wings.

They used the outer .303 bays in the converted wings for oxygen and air bottles.

Dan - Anything you've got on Johnnie Johnson would be appreciated. Never realised he was one of the few aces never to have been shot down!

[pipz]

Forget this E wing stuff Cork..ask him about the wheel well bulges!! Muhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Pipz

[Kev367th]

Wheel well bulges, yet another cluster you know what.

[Squire]

"Apparently the first true 'e' wings"

I suppose, im not sure I would word it like that myself. I think you could say "early" and "late" E wings.

Im sure the reason for the 1944 E wings including the 303 panels was they didn't see a need to delay production by redesigning it any further, or burdening the servicing commandos with a varient that had special parts, ect.

Late war, or post war, it could be revisited.