Author Topic: Teaching Aid  (Read 7107 times)

Offline YUCCA

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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2006, 05:59:13 AM »
didnt watch it but ... chop throttle kick rudder wave good bye pull trigger boom.

Offline TequilaChaser

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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2006, 07:30:40 PM »
only time throttle got chopped/or even moved, was from 2:27 to 2:27 of the 3 minute film. the fight was over at 2:34.......so that is 1/10th or 1/100th of a second or less.. and it was incidental at that trying to check view for La7....


this was not one of them, drag them in, CHOP THROTTLE, KICK RUDDER,  type fights.......

Murdr bout sums it up in his assessment and Ms Schatzi, yes they unknowingly did let me use their advantage against them.......
« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 07:36:05 PM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2006, 07:33:52 PM »
I got the impression yucca was saying if he was behind you, he would have chosen to dump E, but it was left open to wide interpretation.

Offline TequilaChaser

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« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2006, 07:38:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Murdr
I got the impression yucca was saying if he was behind you, he would have chosen to dump E, but it was left open to wide interpretation.


yep, Murdr, if I sit and think about it in different ways, he might possibly have meant that, he did leave it open ended :D
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline straffo

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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2006, 11:45:42 PM »
Good , one minor point, red font on blue background is pretty hard for my eyes.

Offline Balsy

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Re: Re: Teaching Aid
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2006, 08:53:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy


That maneuver is one we see a lot in the arena. I've noticed that some players depend on it. Some get so many kills that way that they think having less energy than the attacker is an advantage.

That can be true, but it generally isn't, the pilot with more energy does have an advantage providing he knows how to use it.
Badboy


I suffer from this affliction, I get more Joy out of winning from a E disadvantage than an E advantage.  So I almost prefer to start at the disadvantage.  What makes it so appealing is MOST in the MA will fall for it everytime.

As soon as I see a pilot with an E advantage not taking my bait, I know my flight will be short lived.

Balsy

Offline Badboy

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Re: Re: Re: Teaching Aid
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2006, 06:15:27 PM »
Some excellent responses there!

Here are my thoughts… I’ve listed the first attacker’s mistakes in the order they struck me as I watched the film. Then I’ve explained a more appropriate maneuver. Apologies in advance, it’s a bit long winded.

The attacker’s actions were less than optimal with respect to the following points:
[list=1]
  • Pursuit curve used to close with the defender.
  • Turn circle entry used to engage the defender.
  • Energy management used with respect to 1 and 2 above.
  • Aircraft Handling Characteristics (AHC) miss-judged.
  • Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) incorrectly employed.  
  • Disengagement/Extension incorrectly employment.
  • [/list=1]    
    One possible explanation for the high number errors may have nothing to do with the lack knowledge. In this case there were two attacking pilots, and it is possible that they were more concerned with something other than good BFM. I suspect they may have been putting each other under some pressure because each of them wanted to get the kill before the other, in effect they were competing against each other, and that compelled them both to go for the quicker low probability shot and accept the associated risks. That’s a factor that influences arena play, in an unnatural way.  

    But before continuing, let's look at the initial attack from the 109's perspective.

http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation7.avi

In that film you will notice that the attacker uses pure pursuit to track the bandit. It’s what is known as Gunsight BFM, and it feels natural for inexperienced pilots to keep their gun sight on the target, unfortunately it is almost the worst thing to do. There are there possible pursuit curves, lead, pure and lag, and the mechanics of the pure pursuit curve are such that you should only pull just enough g to keep your velocity vector pointing at the target.



That’s exactly what this attacker was doing. The problem is as the range decreases, the g load required increases to the extent that pure pursuit becomes an impossible curve to follow if you are much faster than your opponent. If you try, the load required to maintain the pursuit curve quickly exceeds the 6g blackout limit. So in a high speed attack, against a slower opponent who executes a break turn, as was the case here, a pure pursuit curve will always lead to a flight path overshoot if the attacker attempts to track the bandit throughout the attack. A lead pursuit curve may have been slightly better, because that involves pulling more G than necessary earlier in the turn, which means that less g is necessary later in the turn when it may even have been possible to unload for the snap shot. However, those are both weak options because at best they only offer a difficult high aspect deflection shot and that comes with the certainty of a flight path overshoot, and considerable risk of a 3-9 line overshoot. What was the best option?  LAG PURSUIT.

Regardless of whether the attacker has decided he is about to enter the fight as the energy fighter, or the angles fighter, the lag pursuit curve is better. Remember, the choice between angles or energy fighter at this stage is not made with respect to aircraft type, it is made with respect to the relative energy states of the two aircraft, even a Zeke with a big energy advantage on a P-51 should fly as an energy fighter initially. So why is lag pursuit better regardless of the type of fight?

If the attacker is not too much faster than the defender and believes his aircraft can out turn his opponent he should drive for the turn circle entry window, and that means lag pursuit! He will enter his opponents turn circle with a little more energy, and he can store it by using a climbing turn that will drain his opponents maneuvering potential and angular velocity, eventually he will be able to trade his own energy for greater angular velocity and a kill.

If the attacker is too fast for that, as he was in this case, and if he was flying an aircraft that doesn’t have a turn rate advantage, as he was in this case, the answer is to enter the fight as the energy fighter, and once again the solution is a lag pursuit curve, and the high yo-yo.  Why the high yo-yo?

The high yo-yo is an offensive tactic in which the attacker maneuvers through both the vertical and horizontal planes to prevent an overshoot in the plane of the defender’s turn. From this definition, the purpose of the maneuver is obvious: To maintain an offensive advantage by keeping a nose to tail separation between the attacker and defender. In other words, the high yo-yo is a counter for the break turn, the barrel roll defense and the scissors maneuver.  That sounds good, but how does it work?



As an attacker, when it becomes apparent that it will be impossible to stay inside the defender’s turn radius, you should employ the high yo-yo. To perform the maneuver correctly, timing is essential.

For example, if an attacker is conservative and does the high yo-yo too early, the defender can simply lower his nose and dive for separation in order to equalize energy so that eventually the attacker will be forced to disengage to avoid an angles fight. If the attacker yo-yo’s too late, it will be difficult for him to maintain his rear aspect. He will still overshoot his opponent’s flight path so that the defender can either reverse or pull up into the attacker.

Correct timing means that the moment the attacker realizes that he will be unable to stay inside his opponent’s turn radius, he should roll away from the defender’s turn and pull his nose through the vertical plane. The purpose of this action is to diminish his turning component and vector velocity in the plane of the defender’s turn. To acquire max effectiveness, the attacker must maintain back pressure and employ ailerons as primary control for directional change in the vertical plane. The attacker rolls toward the vertical plane so that his flight path describes an arc through both the vertical and horizontal planes (assuming that the defender is turning, more or less, through the horizontal plane). As a result, the attacker’s turning component and vector velocity are diminished in respect to the defender’s turning and velocity components in the plane of the defender’s turn. This allows the attacker to maintain his rear aspect while turning inside his opponent. At the same time, the control technique employed (back pressure and ailerons as primary control for the maneuver) not only allows the attacker to reduce his turn and velocity components to their smallest value, but also reduces his yo-yo apex. This provides the defender very little maneuvering freedom with which to counter the high yo-yo. By maintaining back pressure on the stick throughout, the attacker prevents the overshoot, thus defeating the barrel roll defense and scissors, and also denies the defender the option of diving away to gain separation.

Hope that helps…

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Offline FTJR

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« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2006, 10:16:49 PM »
Badboy,  in your description of the Hi YoYo you say the attacker should roll away from the defenders turn. But looking at the diagram that you've posted it seems that the attackers turn is the same direction but just nose high. So could you please elaborate the meaning of roll away.

Thanks
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Offline bozon

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« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2006, 03:14:39 AM »
nice illustraion film. I'd change the text color though...

Murdr has pretty much summed this up. From the attacker point of view the key is an early decision and comittement. The common mistake is them seeing they are about to blow it but keep trying to compensate instead of breaking off and trying something different.

If you feel you are about to over-shoot, break off the attack immediately, BEFORE you actually overshoot! If you do this early enough it is possible to pull high and drop back down behind him but this time slower. This is a common move with 109 experts and generally a good option for avoiding or defeating a scissors attempt.

If you decided to break off but want to keep as much E for continued BnZ or a rope attempt, roll "away" and pull up. By "away" I mean that if the defender is making a right turn, then you should pull up and a little to the left. This allows you to build up the seperation faster as the defender needs to roll more and cover more degrees to point at you as you pull away.

FTJR, I think badboy means by "away" the same as I do. In his yoyo drawing, red is rolled 90 to the left and follow blue turn. Then roll a little to the right (away) reducing the bank and pulling up to the yoyo.

Bozon
« Last Edit: March 18, 2006, 03:17:15 AM by bozon »
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Offline FTJR

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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2006, 04:44:08 AM »
Ah, I see, tks Bozon
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Offline Simaril

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« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2006, 07:11:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
One correction, or comment anyway... in a rolling scissors you do NOT want to keep your lift vector on your opponent.  You want to anticipate where your opponent will be on the "bottom" of his revolution, and place your lift vector there while you are maintaining as close to strictly vertical in your revolutions as you can.

The rolling scissors is a "race to the back"... whoever can bleed off the most forward momentum is going to win.  Constantly rolling you keep your lift vector on the opponent uses energy you could be using to bleed forward momentum.


Urchin, I'm not following what you're saying in the text I colored red. What do you mean by "maintaining vertical in revolutions"? How can you keep lift vector on a spot at the bottom of a roll while going vertical?

I'd reallyu like to wrap my head around this, because I find I understand verbal explanations better until my clunky hand/eye system gets the knack.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2006, 07:41:13 PM »
Simaril,
I replied to your email, but it bounced on me, the bex.com email addy says user unknown........try again

going on vacation in the AM, wil be a week+ before I get back......
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Badboy

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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2006, 07:57:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
One correction, or comment anyway... in a rolling scissors you do NOT want to keep your lift vector on your opponent.

I would agree with that if both pilots began with roughly similar energy states, however, where one pilot is much faster than the other and the overshoot is almost certain, that doesn't apply to the slower pilot because he has already won the race to reduce his forward velocity, he should be more interested in finding a guns solution as soon as possible after the overshoot so that he can get the shot before his faster opponent pulls out of effective range. To do that he should keep his lift vector on his faster opponent, using ailerons to roll around the axis of his opponents forward velocity vector. Naturally, if the overshoot was in question, and the defender had to work for it, the correct procedure is to fly an out-of-plane lag pursuit course, where your lift vector should be pointing behind your opponent.    

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Offline Badboy

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« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2006, 08:09:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FTJR
Badboy,  in your description of the Hi YoYo you say the attacker should roll away from the defenders turn. But looking at the diagram that you've posted it seems that the attackers turn is the same direction but just nose high. So could you please elaborate the meaning of roll away.

Thanks


Yep, you need to roll away from the defender's turn in order to pull your nose high, if you don't roll away from the defenders turn you can't execute the yo-yo and you will overshoot the defenders flight path and give him the opportunity to reverse his turn. When, due to his lower speed, he will have the advantage in the scissors.

Remember, the defender will be waiting for the flight path overshoot as his signal to reverse into a scissors, by yo-yoing off and avoiding the overshoot, you deny him that cue, and maintain your offensive advantage.

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Offline Badboy

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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2006, 08:15:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
I'd reallyu like to wrap my head around this, because I find I understand verbal explanations better until my clunky hand/eye system gets the knack.


Simaril,

I'd be happy to spend time with you in the training arena working on this or any other aspect of air combat. If you would like to set up some sessions, let me know?

Badboy
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