Author Topic: I've seen some dumb DOD projects, but this 1 is at the top of the list  (Read 603 times)

Offline Wolfala

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To preface the article - some genius in the Pentagon wants to put a conventional payload on a Trident SLBM. Now what makes this Emmy award material is the thought train used here - most of us are kids of the Cold War. There is no way to differentiate between a launch that is a conventional payload or nuclear. Hell, a few years ago there was a Norwegian rocket that had a Trident Booster stage that set off alarms in Russia.

I understand the idea of getting a payload on target within 30 minutes or your money back, but its not like the nuclear armed countries aren't going to be spooked when they see the RV's imbound and wonder if they are conventional or nuclear.

Anyway - bad idea.

Wolf

Trident ICBM Goes Conventional
American Forces Press Service | Sara Wood | March 13, 2006

Washington D.C. - The conventional "Trident" missile program the Pentagon will ask Congress to fund is part of a larger strategy to better address diverse threats facing the United States and will further the country's defense goals, a Defense Department spokesman said here today.

The Conventional Trident Modification program, which will cost about $503 million, was developed based on a 2001 comprehensive review of America's deterrence policy, the spokesman said, speaking on background. The study, he said, recognized that a deterrence strategy that relies primarily on nuclear weapons does not address the diverse threats the United States faces, and therefore the country must have a balance of nuclear forces, conventional strike capabilities and non-kinetic capabilities, which include information operations and non-lethal weapons.

The goal of this new strategy is to produce a force capable of assuring allies, dissuading competitors, deterring adversaries, and if necessary defeating enemies, the spokesman said. The conventional missile program will help achieve this goal by providing the capability to defeat threats on short notice without crossing the nuclear threshold, he said.

"(Conventional Trident Modification)'s advantages over other conventional strike capabilities is its ability to provide prompt response to threats around the globe," he said. "The (program) will allow national leadership to act in a crisis without a lengthy military buildup."

Additional benefits of the Conventional Trident Modification are that it requires no forward-deployed or visible presence, has few if any requirements for allied overflight permission, and gives the enemy little or no warning before a strike, the spokesman said.

To ensure other countries don't mistake a conventional missile launch for a nuclear missile attack, DoD is developing confidence-building measures, such as advance notification and shared early warnings, he said. Also, DoD can borrow notification procedures from its long history of test launches of dual-role weapons systems.

The Conventional Trident Modification program gives the United States a long-range strike option against targets beyond the range of current systems or that are heavily defended, the spokesman said. Also, the deployment of the program will send a message to adversaries that the United States is prepared to defend its national interests, he said.

"If needed in the war on terrorism, the (Conventional Trident Modification program) can help deter state actors from sponsoring terrorism by imposing the threat of prompt conventional attack," he said.


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Offline Chairboy

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I've seen some dumb DOD projects, but this 1 is at the top of the list
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2006, 01:22:35 AM »
This is truly a crappy idea.  The CEP of a modern ICBM, while incredible, is still inferior to that of a Tomahawk, and as we've seen, the Tomahawk has limitations too when it comes to a rapidly changing battlefield.  

On the other hand....  if you were to remove the warheads from the heavy lift ICBMs and replace them with aeroshells that contained a flock of combat UAVs, then you'd have something.  15 minutes after launch, the aeroshells re-enter the atmosphere a few hundred miles from the target.  Skipping across the stratosphere, they slow to mach 5 before explosive bolts fire.  The shells break apart almost instantly in the airstream.  A handful of hypersonic guided missiles continue towards the target while streamers/dragchute devices deploy behind a smaller, aerodynamic box, slowing it below the speed of sound.

As the hypersonic guided missiles pepper the hard targets, the box slows enough, then breaks open, deploying a bunch of stealth weapon drones.  A pair of them spread wider wings and climb, converting speed into altitude, then deploy props and begin orbiting the scene.  These will be satellite comm relays and surveillance platforms.  

The rest of the drones will loiter lower and use hellfire missiles and built in warheads against targets of opportunity as needed.  Maybe some fire cannisters of antipersonel mines, etc etc.

When everything is done, all that's left is the surveillance drones.  They have fuel to loiter for a long time, maybe even a day.  When they're done, they dive into whatever's left.
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Offline Weirdguy

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I've seen some dumb DOD projects, but this 1 is at the top of the list
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2006, 01:35:00 AM »
Not quite.

What the Navy is going to do is have an insert tube installed in some of the tridents so that four Tomahawks can be carried inside a single tube.  I guess the boomer submarine captains are feeling left out of all the wars being fought recently.

Using the actual Trident rockets is probably not a good idea, because they won't look much different than an actual nuclear launch to enemy early warning radar and radar satelites, despite what they said about having "confidence building measures" as part of the thing.  It can still be mistaken for what it is not.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2006, 01:42:35 AM »
Weirdguy, no, he's correct, there's a seperate discussion about equipping ICBMs and SLBMs with conventional explosives.  This is different from the Ohio conversion project that replaces the SLBMs with Tomahawk clusters, a project that has been going on for years.
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Offline eagl

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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2006, 01:54:42 AM »
Chairboy,

The CEP of an ICBM delivered conventional weapon will be as precise as we want it to be, limited only by the terminal guidance method.  JDAM is pretty good and the same basic software can probably be modded to take into account the very high terminal velocities of a ballistic weapon, guiding it to GPS quality precision.  Add a terminal seeker such as a laser spot seeker with mid-course assist from GPS, and they ought to be able to hit within the size of the laser dot.

Yea it'll take some tech leaps such as adding guidance fins that can handle both the high re-entry temps and still give enough maneuverability in the lower atmosphere, but I can think of a half dozen ways to make that work just off the top of my head so it's definately possible.

You don't even want to think about some of the other, more far-out proposals.  Imagine you want to put a SEAL team halfway across the world right NOW.  So jam them into a crew capsule ontop of an ICBM, and press go...  Don't need much of a life support system since they'll be in transit for well under an hour, and you can send along a precision guided cargo pod with more gear if necessary.  Laughable?  Well, sub-orbital rapid troop delivery was listed as a future requirement in a strategy rag I read a few months ago, so try to imagine starship troopers (the book, not the movie) coming to reality in the next couple decades.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2006, 10:22:45 AM »
If the U.S. does it, other countries... other nuclear capable countries will follow suit.

Imagine someone launching something similar at us. I expect that we would respond with nukes before it even reaches its target.

Bad idea.
sand

Offline indy007

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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2006, 10:49:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
You don't even want to think about some of the other, more far-out proposals.  Imagine you want to put a SEAL team halfway across the world right NOW.  So jam them into a crew capsule ontop of an ICBM, and press go...  Don't need much of a life support system since they'll be in transit for well under an hour, and you can send along a precision guided cargo pod with more gear if necessary.  Laughable?  Well, sub-orbital rapid troop delivery was listed as a future requirement in a strategy rag I read a few months ago, so try to imagine starship troopers (the book, not the movie) coming to reality in the next couple decades.


Doesn't sound far out to me at all. Sounds like the logical extension of the mobility warfare doctrine. The next step up would be a stealth rocket and delivery vehicle. If Skunkworks can design a stealth carrier, I wouldn't think it beyond their abilities to build a stealth sleeve for existing Trident's. Not sure how you would handle the heat bloom, but any amatuer astronomer can track "spy" satellites and get their schedule. All you need is a watch & decent telescope (and an internet connection helps).

That sounds quite a bit more feasible in the near future than waiting on Hyper-X development to give us scramjet delivery vehicles.

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2006, 11:47:03 AM »
It would most definately address the situation in iran where you have several targets related to their nuclear plants that are spread out. It would be one way to deliver unstoppable ordinance over a large area simultaneously. It would require little to imagine several bunker buster type munitions punching large holes in those places.
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Offline john9001

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I've seen some dumb DOD projects, but this 1 is at the top of the list
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2006, 12:09:34 PM »
exactly what i was thinking, just the thing for iran nuke factorys.

america you evil, no oil for you.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2006, 12:59:43 PM »
Instead of conventional warheads, they should fill them with candy and cards containing inspirational sayings.  


Iran Early Warning Station:  Holy ****!  The Americans are nuking us!...Wait a second, those aren't nukes...Aw, the Yank pig-dogs just wanted to tells us to have a great day and to give us some ginger snaps.  Perhaps they aren't so bad after all.

*World Peace Breaks Out*

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2006, 02:00:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Instead of conventional warheads, they should fill them with candy and cards containing inspirational sayings.  


Iran Early Warning Station:  Holy ****!  The Americans are nuking us!...Wait a second, those aren't nukes...Aw, the Yank pig-dogs just wanted to tells us to have a great day and to give us some ginger snaps.  Perhaps they aren't so bad after all.

*World Peace Breaks Out*


Liberal hippy idealist! :D

Offline Deth7

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I've seen some dumb DOD projects, but this 1 is at the top of the list
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2006, 07:37:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
Chairboy,


You don't even want to think about some of the other, more far-out proposals.  Imagine you want to put a SEAL team halfway across the world right NOW.  So jam them into a crew capsule ontop of an ICBM, and press go...  Don't need much of a life support system since they'll be in transit for well under an hour, and you can send along a precision guided cargo pod with more gear if necessary.  Laughable?  


No way  they would survive the launch....
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Offline Deth7

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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2006, 07:39:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Instead of conventional warheads, they should fill them with candy and cards containing inspirational sayings.  


Then send the nuke 30 minutes later.....:D
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Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2006, 10:41:47 PM »
Idiots want a rapidly deployable accurate weapons system ought to look at the old space-based kinetic kill vehicle ideas from the 60's then.  One, IIRC was called THOR (not to be confused with the missile system by the same name).

Re-entry technology is well known.  Just take a kinetic kill vehicle big and dense enough to reenter the atmosphere intact, while streamlined enough to keep as much velocity as is practical.  Tie it into the GPS constellation for accuracy.  

Response time all comes down to how many trash cans full of long metal telephone poles you've got in orbit ready to drop on top of the bad guys in the first place.  Different sizes for different targets.  Space treaties?  Ah...screw 'em....

Government sized lawn darts.  

Inmates truely are running the asylum these days.......  :mad:

Offline z0rch

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I've seen some dumb DOD projects, but this 1 is at the top of the list
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2006, 11:12:07 PM »
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/01/08/economists_say_cost_of_war_could_top_2_trillion/

Economists say cost of war could top $2 trillion

The population of Iraq is about 26,074,906 (July 2005 est.)

2000000000000/26074906=76702

That's $76,702 for every man, woman and child. Probably works out to about 1/4 million per household.

We could buy them all a nice HD flat screen, media library, XBox and Dish Network for about $15 grand each.

They'll end up spending so much time sitting around watching tube and playing video games, they won't have time to blow stuff up.

We save about $1,564,494,360,000 and open up a whole new consumer market.

To make the boomer drivers happy, they can deliver the home entertainment systems with Tridents.