Author Topic: In between plane (Read 895 times)

Chairboy · « **on:** March 18, 2006, 11:46:08 PM »

So I'm slowly building my plane, but I can tell it's going to take years. Slow progress is killing me, but even full time, it'd be a couple years, so I'm looking for something to fly in the meantime.

We may have an interested buyer for our restaurants, and my wife ack has okayed a $20K budget for a plane if the sale goes through. I could probably get a Cessna 152 or Traumahawk for that kind of change if I shopped around, but there are sooooo many restrictions with certified planes, not to mention high cost of upkeep. I'm pretty sure that if I did a cert'd pane, I'd be even less likely to continue my build.

What I think I'm looking for in a transition plane:
* STOL day flyer, ala "Piper Cub".
* Experimental (for cost of operation and flexibility in modifications, electronics)
* Doesn't need to be a speed demon, but it would be nice if I could pop up to Seattle once in a while (230 miles), even if it takes 3-4 hours to do it.
* Operate out of rough fields. I landed on a combo grass/gravel field once, and there was something exhilerating about it. I'd like to explore some private strips around Oregon.

I'll have a fast cross country speed demon when I finish my Cozy, right now I want to develop some airmanship and have fun without spending a bunch.

One ad I saw on Barnstormers was this:
http://www.barnstormers.com/listing.php?id=100910

I've corresponded with the owner, and the cabin dimensions seem to be slightly bigger than the Cessna 152, plus he's 6'3, so I should be able to fit in it. One thing I'm worried about is the registration, these planes seem to be half registered as part 91, and some as Ultralights. I'd like to be able to log my time, soo.....

Thoughts? Alternate suggestions?

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2006, 12:25:29 AM »

If I'm reading this right... Will you suffer in the future by not owning your restaurants? Do you enjoy running your own businesses?

nirvana · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2006, 12:27:06 AM »

Start a paypal fund? Not sure man, that's a lot of money all around though. Restraunts not making money anymore? Or just tired of them? They seem like really good income otherwise. That's why I only build small stuff, model cars and the like, i'd like to build an RC car at some point though, just because I enjoy soldering and what not. Keep going and good luck!

Debonair · « **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2006, 12:42:56 AM »

There is a Yankee on Ebay that fits your description

Chairboy · « **Reply #4 on:** March 19, 2006, 12:51:04 AM »

Nah, the restaurants are not the biz I want to be in anymore. Here's the sequence of events:

2003: We buy a restaurant, I post about it here. It's for my wife and she's excited about running it.
2004: After almost a year of running it from LA (restaurant is in Oregon), we move local and she takes over in person. She realizes that she likes turning businesses around more than she likes running them. Fixing versus driving, etc.
2005: The guy who we bought our restaurant from owns another and through some poor bookkeeping on my wife's part, ends up owing us $10k because she never filled out the foodstamps forms to transfer it from him to us. She had an agreement with him that he'd send her a check, and he grew progressively more and more behind because of business problems. We buy his restaurant for cheap and my wife's dad starts running it. He was disabled and on SS, but couldn't quite make ends meet and was bored out of his mind, so this is perfect for him, he can make money doing something he loves, and we have a good person in the restaurant. Sales continue to be poor, the location, as it turns out, is terrible (invisible from the street).
2006: Last month, my wife's parents were both killed in a fire. I'm now in the restaurant taking her dad's place. It's depressing (his work is evident all around us, in hand written notes, procedures, tools, decoration, everything) and still not making money. The original restaurant makes a modest profit that the second restaurant eats. It just needs a little investment in signage and someone to work in it instead of running it remotely, but we're tapped out. I lost my real job a few months ago, and we just can't keep the place running. So we're selling it for a low price to someone who'll be able to make it work better and can give it the attention it needs.

My wife has a new job working for the restaurant corporation opening new stores around the country (she's in some city north of Minneapolis opening one right now), so our bills will be paid, and as soon as I get a new job, together we'll be rich like astronauts.

So I want a low cost way to keep flying, that $90 an hour down at the FBO really puts a crimp in casual flying.

Chairboy · « **Reply #5 on:** March 19, 2006, 12:55:26 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Debonair
There is a Yankee on Ebay that fits your description

Yeah, but the Yankee is certified.

Here's the plane:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1972-Patriot-Blue-Grumman-Yankee-AA-1A_W0QQitemZ4622584337QQcategoryZ63677QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

With just under 1800 SMOH, I'm looking at $70 an hour towards paying for an overhaul (assuming I subscribed to the TBO myth and assuming it even makes it to TBO) plus airframe insurance. If the engine starts blowing low compression, it's certified status means I can't put a single rotor wankel into it like I could with the Rans or any other experimental, and so on.

Good price for that plane, and Yankees are fantastic, but.... I'd probably spend as much per hour owning it as I would renting at the FBO.

eagl · « **Reply #6 on:** March 19, 2006, 01:00:52 AM »

Diff in registration on a particular model should depend on how it was built, ie. did it exceed the requirements for a given registration. Too much hp, gross weight, speed, fuel capacity, etc. can all bump a plane up out of ultralight.

You'll need to find out how it's registered, and if it's an ultralight, decide if you really care enough to change it. I don't know how pricy and time consuming it would be to re-register an ultralight as an experimental though...

eagl · « **Reply #7 on:** March 19, 2006, 01:03:31 AM »

Looking at all the guy's posts, he says that it would fit the sport pilot category so you may be all set. Looks like he's been trying to sell for at least 3 months so find out what's wrong and why nobody else will buy. Maybe ask around at the airfield where he usually flies from or with the local EAA chapter.

He seems motivated to sell and might take a low bid...

Chairboy · « **Reply #8 on:** March 19, 2006, 01:08:11 AM »

Good points! I just visited the EAA, and in one of the member only areas
(http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/Ultralight%20to%20Experimental-Amateur%20Built%20-%20How%20to%20Convert.html?)
they describe that it _is_ possible to get an ultralight recertified as an experimental, providing you get a builders log from the builder or (and this is only a MAYBE) if you can get an affidavit from the builder that it was amateur built. Otherwise, it'd be limited to an exhibition restriction that would only allow take-offs and landings from my home airport. Hells no!

Good thinking on asking other people in that area if they know anything about it, it might save some airfare. I've asked the guy how confident he feels mechanically about it, including a hypothetical "What if I said I was going to fly it to Oregon from Iowa instead of putting it on a flatbed?" I await his answer with much interest. I don't want to lowball the guy if it's a good plane, because the price looks reasonable from what I've seen assuming it's in fair shape.

I also don't want target fixation on THIS ONE AIRCRAFT AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL OTHERS as is the tradition among first time vehicle buyers who, after investing an hour of research in a specific model, might feel obligated to follow through with the purchase because "gosh darnit, how could anything else be better?".

Heh, didn't stop me from bidding on a $25 transponder with broken mode C on eBay, just in case.

Golfer · « **Reply #9 on:** March 19, 2006, 08:43:15 AM »

Be very careful. With $20,000 you're going to run out of money and you're going to run out fast!

Personally I wouldn't buy an experimental unless there were some very specific circumstances. I knew the builder/owner/maintainer very well and would trust him with my life no questions asked is pretty much the specific circumstance.

With the [lack of] budget listed there are a few options. (regardless of certification...which should be in no way a motivating factor for anything)

Grumman AA1-A/B. Speedy, sips fuel and since it isn't approved...I'm sure it will not roll nicely. Jim Bede did it right with these airplanes...great aircraft.

Ercoupe. I like them. Educate yourself prior to purchase on various problems since they're old airplanes and they do have gotchyas.

annnnd...thats about it.

The only ultralight I'd ever trust my life to and have trusted it to is the Quad City Challenger I/II/SP. Flown both the single and two seat with both long and clipped wings.

crowMAW · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2006, 11:24:05 AM »

What about a Kitfox?

Chairboy · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2006, 12:21:43 PM »

I don't see any Kitfox's in my price range (I want something I can fly NOW while I build my Cozy, not another kit!).

Golfer, I appreciate your comments, and I would agree about the "if all you have is $20k, you'll run out of money" sentiment, except that $20k is my airframe budget, not my "total money in pocket". Regarding the Ercoupe, there's one for sale in my price range (and I love the ercoupe, I'm actually helping restore one at my EAA chapter), but it's a certified plane, and that adds a HUGE overhead in ongoing costs. I want to fly and built, not fly and pay out the wazzoo and never be able to afford more supplies for my Cozy!

Here's a link to more info on the plane:
http://www.rans.com/s-6s.htm

It's definately no trike.

crowMAW · « **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2006, 01:15:14 PM »

Searched Barnstormers and found some prospects (may have some negociating on some...but I've never paid asking price on a plane before):

KITFOX IV • $24,000
KITFOX SERIES 5 CONSTRUCTION COMPLETE READY TO COV • $18,000 (you'd need to do a little work to finish)
2002 KITFOX CLASSIC IV MEETS LSA! • $21,250
KITFOX I • $20,000
KITFOX II • $14,000

Another one is the Avid Flyer:
AVID FLYER MARK IV SPEEDWING • $19,000
AVID FLYER • $15,000

This is "cheap" for 2 seats
FISHER SUPER KOALA • $9,000

Or even a original version of your plane:
VARIEZE • $22,000

I had considered picking up a Titan Tornado at one time. They look more ultalight-ish, but many have N-numbers. Quite a few in your price range.

Dago · « **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2006, 03:57:32 PM »

You dont need to buy an experimental category aircraft to make changes to an aircraft, and while I am a little rusty on the regs regarding aircraft certified in the experimental category, I wouldnt be so sure that the same regs dont apply regarding changes.

If you were to buy a normal category aircraft, something like an Aeronca Champ, you could still make changes etc as long as you did it with an STC or get a field approval with a 337 form.

Chairboy · « **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2006, 04:05:17 PM »

Dago: Both of those = $$$

And the idea of having to file a 337 to put a new knob on the end of the stick or to fix a piece of broken upholstery is repugnant, but those are actual examples.

If I want to mount a GPS, I couldn't make it 'part of the panel', if I wanted to put in a compass, an A&P would have to do it....

It's just silly, I'd rather take responsibillity for myself. I'm going to be doing this stuff anyhow in my own plane.