Thirteen Days

[Lance]

My step father was in the C.I.A. at the time that the Cuban missile crisis was going on.   I made a point to watch that movie with him and pick his brain afterwards.  All in all, he said he thought it was very accurate.

[skernsk]

Who's this Lance guy?  

We all know we can trust the CIA!

[Lance]

I was just doing my Wobble impersonation.

[Hangtime]

Right on Toad... responsibility & accountability! And the Kennedy's made damn sure there was NO Invasion. And it was the right call.

It was a botched up prep job; the pooch got screwed my CIA mis-assesments, and Kennedy yanked the plug when it was apparent there was no hope of success plus the international black eye the US would engender in the attempt... let alone the Russian response.

National Security Archive chronology; Bay of Pigs

That's TWO mass diddlyups kenndy avoided... and Tricky Dick would not have.

[Toad]

Hang, you must be joking.

Kennedy DID authorize an "invasion". He sent the "Cuban Exiles" in unsupported; he HAD to know what was going to happen to them.

From your own reference:

"FEB 24-27, 1961: A team of three officers from the Joint Staff examines and reports on the military effectiveness of the Cuban Expeditionary Force at its Guatemala base. The report includes the estimate that because of the visibility of activities at Retalhuleu in Guatemala and Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua, the odds against surprise being achieved are about 85 to 15. The JCS air evaluation points out that if surprise is not achieved, the attack against Cuba will fail, adding that one Castro aircraft armed with .50 caliber machine guns could sink all or most of the invasion force. (Aguilar, p.10)"

Not too far off the mark there, were they?

"At the end of the first day of combat the Brigade controls two of the three access roads and has the third within its line of fire. The Cuban Air Force has sunk two ships and a landing craft and damaged a ship and three barges."
 
The professional military men told him such a half-baked operation would fail.

So typically, the politicians thought they knew more about how to fight a war. (Ummm, let's see... key figures in Kennedy administration's idiotic idea to send in Cuban Exiles to Bay of Pigs that reappeared later in the Viet Nam debacle... can you name two?   )

Kennedy may not have authorized a US supported invasion of Cuba. Instead, he sent the Cuban Exile brigade to sure defeat instead.

The whole fargin' idea was a non-starter. With the ouster of the Eisenhower/Nixon team that started the ball rolling, the ball should have been stopped, deflated and thrown in the trash by Kennedy.

Instead, a crappy idea was made crappier by Politicians-turned-wondergenerals and the crappiest plan was executed, leading to its inevitable defeat.

This is something that you find worthy of praise or admiration?

He should have called off EVERYTHING.

Didn't do that, did he?

[AKDejaVu]

I was just doing my Wobble impersonation.

You left out the part about how your dad sued them for negligence and was awarded $100,000 the next day.

AKDejaVu

[Hangtime]

No he didn't... and he should have. Fact remains; he WAS aware that an OVERT US inavsion would not play.. and he was willing to support a CUBAN EXILE attempt as long as US personnel were not used directly. He NEVER indicated to anyone at any time that he would authorize a formal US invasion. The planners consistently and wrongly assumed he would reverse himself and ok formal US support "in dire need." They are ALMOST correct; for Kennedy is indeed sympathetic..

 

On the evening of DDay the situation looks bad to the President in Washington. U.S. ships might have to be used. “I’d rather be an aggressor than a bum,” (Wyden, pp.264?265) (Aguilar, pp.3?35; Johnson, pp.103?139; Wyden, pp. 273?288)

It still remains a possibility that the invasion could have accomplised it's two goals.. installation of the Exile Government and a dash into the mountains for the exile force HAD THE US BACKED UP THE EXILE FLOWN AIR RAIDS and destroyed the Cuban Air Force in detail with F8's from the Navy Task Force 100 miles south....

He didn't.. and the invasion failed, from lack of US formal support, the ineptness of some of the exile commanders, planning delays and leaks from the exile force to the Cuban regime.

Bear in mind the Kennedy, while definitly not in favor of a US invasion, supported the goals of the exiles, as did most of the population of this country. Being president (and remaining president) means he had to balance what the country wanted, and what was right for the Nation. Tough road..

Still; the guy came right out and told the Nation immediatly after the failure..

 

APR 21, 1961: At a press conference President Kennedy accepts responsibility for the failed invasion: “There's an old saying that victory has a hundred fathers and defeat is an orphan. What matters,” he says, is only one fact, “I am the responsible officer of the government.” (Wyden, p.305)  

The guy does not shirk his responsibility.. and goes on to try and determine what can be learned from the inter-agency inspired debacle..

 

President Kennedy charges General Maxwell D. Taylor, Attorney General Robert Kennedy, Admiral Arleigh Burke and Director of Central Intelligence Allen Dulles to study our governmental practices and programs in the areas of military and paramilitary, guerrilla and anti? guerrilla activity which fell short of outright war with a view to strengthening our work in this area, with special attention to the lessons which can be learned from the recent events in Cuba. (Aguilar, p.1)  

While the Bay of Pigs is certainly NOT a shining moment in american forigen policy history, it is a turning point.. and I say again, it would have been one heluva lot worse with 'Ol Dicky Boy in the hot seat.

[Toad]

Hang, you're dancing around it amigo.

While I'm pretty proud of the US in general, THIS WAS A BAD IDEA FROM MOMENT ONE.

The US, through the Eisenhower years sponsored and trained the "Cuban Exiles". They believed that the US military was behind them and would support their "invasion". Whether or not they had any reason or right to believe that was another matter entirely.

Then Kennedy wins the election and the training continues, the invasion is "on".

Any... repeat ANY... of the high level military advisors could have told Kennedy it wasn't going to work unless US forces backed the play with firepower and blood. MANY of those advisors did that very thing. (Again, this is aside from whether or not we SHOULD have backed such a play.)

There was NO WAY IN H*LL that was going to work. Kennedy was given that assessment and ignored it. (Hmm, Johnson and McNamara play "VietNam". Wonder where they got the idea for the "game"?)

Those poor B*stards were offered up for sacrifice on a "long shot", a crappy, piss-poor gamble.

Kennedy should have never had to step before the nation and take responsibility... BECAUSE any truly compassionate man would not have let the operation even begin. Without overt US support, it was doomed.

He was gambling with their lives for political gain...

Again, I see nothing on the US side in this entire affair that can be considered "admirable.

Nixon? He probably would have ordered them in. They'd most likely have gotten full US support, including air cover.

Would it have succeeded? Would it have failed? Would it have led to escalation with the Russians? Any answers are simply unsupportable speculation.

This, however is true: Had the US actually supported the Cuban Exiles it trained and equipped for the mission, the "invasion" would at least have been launched with a chance of success.

Which would have been the more honorable, more moral path, given that the "invasion" was going to happen in any event?

Those poor B*stards were sacrificed for no good reason... and Kennedy could have stopped it all with one word. "NO".

[Hangtime]

Yer right; I'm dancing.

History frankly shows American foriegn policy was hideous.. Guatamala is a good example. And we didn't get any smarter in a hell of a hurry either.

Nonetheless, I still get the willies when my minds eye pictures Nixon in that position.. nukes would have been exchanged, if not in Cuba then, then certainly in Europe some weeks later.

Kennedy dillema was a tough one.. he WANTS to support 'em.. was told that the exile force was the best army in the Americas at the time. He supports the attempt; is generous with materials, training; pretty much everything they needed.. except secrecy; and direct formal US force, which was absolutely oput of the question from jump street in eisenhowers intent and in Kennedys.

Yah; yer right; all he had to say was NO. And he did. Many times, on many occasions right up to DDay.  The Exiles just never believed him. Their cadres, their trainers, their CIA supporters.. all of 'em thought that Kennedy would back 'em up when they hit the beaches, that there would be airstrikes...

Kennedy's moral stength lies in doing what was right for the Nation... not what was right for those exiles pinned on the beaches.

I guess you could say the same 'ol Dicky Boy.. he couldn't save the loyal Vietnamiese..

And he didn't save the Hmong in Laos...

Bush didn't even try to save the Kurds..

Seems to be a lotta this goin around, enh?

(hey, I'm dancing as fast as I can.   )

[Toad]

Horsepuckey. You're going to have to dance WAY FASTER.

Kennedy's "dilemma" wasn't a dilemma.

1. The invasion won't succeed without US aircover (at a minimum).

2. Kennedy, like Eisenhower before him (and most likely Nixon as well, schooled at Ike's knee in this affair) will NOT allow overt US involvement, particularly naval and air support.

3. Therefore, the invasion is doomed to failure (and Kennedy had that assessment from several sources and it's recorded that he decided to ignore them).

4. Doomed to failure, DON'T GO.

Real, real farkin' simple. That's a dilemma for the man that wrote "Profiles in Courage". Nice try, dance faster.

He might have said No here and there but he DIDN'T when it really counted.

What was right for the Nation was to stay the fark out of Cuba's internal affairs. He didn't have the moral strength to do that, either.

Nixon vis-a-vis the VietNamese and Hmong?

You know history better than that, so don't make me drag it all out here. WHO sent the US troops into VietNam in force? WHO was that?

Nixon RAN on getting us out. NIXON was not the guy that gave the "GO" signal on our involvement, was NOT the guy that initially encouraged the Hmong. Was not the guy that initially told the Viets, "hey, don't worry.. we're with ya all the way."

WHO DID THOSE THINGS? Yeah, you already know the answer.

Nixon extricated us. It wasn't pretty and it didn't turn out to be "with honor" in my book. But he was left a pretty sh*tty hand by... WHO? McNamara WHO? Lyndon WHO? Kennedy WHO?

Oh, yeah.. the same guys that didn't have the moral fortitude to NOT send in the Cuban Exiles.

Forget blaming VietNam on Nixon, Hang. It's a cheap shot and you know it.

Kurds and Bush? Another fubar. All you can say is thanks to the "no-fly zones" they aren't getting hit with chemical weapons anymore by their benevolent President in Baghdad. 10 years of not getting hit with nerve gas.. well, it's something. Not much, but something.

Dance.

[Hangtime]

Nope; no cigar. It's a popular mis-conception tho. Ike got us into Vietnam. Not Kennedy. Wasn't HIS sack of toejam!

From Ike's Bio:

   

In foreign policy, Eisenhower fostered what became known as "brinkmanship," or the policy of taking the nation to the brink of war in confronting the Soviets. He relied on the threat of massive retaliation and the threat of first use of nuclear weapons to fight communist aggression. He also authorized secret actions by the newly formed Central Intelligence Agency in so-called third world countries. Furthermore, Eisenhower worked to create non-communist alliances to encircle the Soviet Union and China (NATO, SEATO, The Baghdad Pact). Covert operations by the CIA put the Shah into power in Iran, prevented distribution of land in Guatemala that would have cut U.S. fruit profits and deposed a leftist government, and began planning for the removal of Fidel Castro in Cuba. After the French surrendered in Vietnam, Eisenhower established a puppet South Vietnamese government in Saigon, a move that would eventually suck the U.S. into the Vietnam War. Keeping his campaign promise of 1953, Ike ended the Korean War by negotiating a cease-fire in which Korea was divided at the 38th parallel.  

Heeheheee; Two-steppin, and I ain't from Texas. Speakin of Texas, LBJ was the guy yer thinkin of... Kennedy never had a chance to REALLY mess the place up.  

Like the Bay of Pigs, more debris from Ike's nasty Foreign Policy Program.

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Hangtime ]

[Toad]

I just lit your Cigar and am smoking it now. Have you always smoked these El Cheapos?

Truman sent the first US troops to the area. I think I can still find it on the web, if you like.  
 http://members.tripod.com/paulrparker/namhist/


"September 26, 1945 - The first American death in Vietnam occurs, during the unrest in Saigon, as OSS officer Lt. Col. A. Peter Dewey is killed by Viet Minh guerrillas who mistook him for a French officer. Before his death, Dewey had filed a report on the deepening crisis in Vietnam, stating his opinion that the U.S. "ought to clear out of Southeast Asia."

There ya go.  

Eisenhower did keep a small MAAG group of US forces there training the Viets. This was ALWAYS <50 IIRC.

"more debris from Ike's nasty Foreign Policy Program"

Say WHAT?

January 20, 1961"Kennedy is inaugurated as the 35th U.S. President and declares "...we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to insure the survival and the success of liberty."

The party really starts under Kennedy; Ike never did ANYTHING like what Kennedy did.

"May 1961 - President Kennedy sends 400 American Green Beret 'Special Advisors' to South Vietnam to train South Vietnamese soldiers in methods of 'counter-insurgency' in the fight against Viet Cong guerrillas."

***
He gets "real good" advice fromt the same clowns that hosed the Cuban Exiles:
***

"October 1961 - To get a first-hand look at the deteriorating military situation, top Kennedy aides, Maxwell Taylor and Walt Rostow, visit Vietnam. "If Vietnam goes, it will be exceedingly difficult to hold Southeast Asia," Taylor reports to the President and advises Kennedy to expand the number of U.S. military advisors and to send 8000 combat soldiers.

Defense Secretary McNamara and the Joint Chiefs of Staff recommend instead a massive show of force by sending six divisions (200,000 men) to Vietnam. However, the President decides against sending any combat troops."

***
Good move by JFK but he still can't figure it out. MacArthur told him, IIRC; he just wouldn't listen.
***

"October 24, 1961 - On the sixth anniversary of the Republic of South Vietnam, President Kennedy sends a letter to President Diem and pledges "the United States is determined to help Vietnam preserve its independence..."

President Kennedy then sends additional military advisors along with American helicopter units to transport and direct South Vietnamese troops in battle, thus involving Americans in combat operations. Kennedy justifies the expanding U.S. military role as a means "...to prevent a Communist takeover of Vietnam which is in accordance with a policy our government has followed since 1954." The number of military advisors sent by Kennedy will eventually surpass 16,000."

***
Want to talk about Diem and how/why he died?
***

"November 2, 1963 - At 3 a.m., one of Diem's aides betrays his location to the generals. The hunt for Diem and Nhu now begins. At 6 a.m., Diem telephones the generals. Realizing the situation is hopeless, Diem and Nhu offer to surrender from inside a Catholic church. Diem and Nhu are then taken into custody by rebel officers and placed in the back of an armored personnel carrier. While traveling to Saigon, the vehicle stops and Diem and Nhu are assassinated.

At the White House, a meeting is interrupted with the news of Diem's death. According to witnesses, President Kennedy's face turns a ghostly shade of white and he immediately leaves the room. Later, the President records in his private diary, "I feel that we must bear a good deal of responsibility for it."

***
Oh, yes... Profiles in Courage indeed. Diem's death, brought to you by the same folks that offered up the Cuban Exiles for sacrifice.
***

"December 24, 1964 - By year's end, the number of American military advisors in South Vietnam is 23,000."

December 27, 1966 - By year's end, U.S. troop levels reach 389,000 with 5008 combat deaths and 30,093 wounded.

December 23, 1967 - By year's end, U.S. troop levels reach 463,000 with 16,000 combat deaths to date.

November 27, 1968  By year's end, U.S. troop levels reached 495,000 with 30,000 American deaths to date. In 1968, over a thousand a month were killed.

***
Mr. Nixon's war? NOT HARDLY.  He's handed a fubared war, ROE by Robert Dickhead McNamara (remember him, Cuban Exiles ring any bells?) with 1000 American kids dying a month.

Mr. Nixon's war? LOL.

What's the first thing Nixon did?
***

January 1, 1969 - Henry Cabot Lodge, former American ambassador to South Vietnam, is nominated by President-elect Nixon to be the senior U.S negotiator at the Paris peace talks.

January 20, 1969

- Richard M. Nixon is inaugurated as the 37th U.S. President and declares "...the greatest honor history can bestow is the title of peacemaker. This honor now beckons America..." He is the fifth President coping with Vietnam and had successfully campaigned on a pledge of "peace with honor."

***
Mr. Nixon's war? Jaysus, Hang... you gotta be shortin' me! Kennedy got us in, Johnson compounded the error and Nixon drug us out covered with sh*t... but out nonetheless.

[MrBill]

But ... But ... But ... Dem dern facts always take the fun out of a good argument!        
Hang you should need a good laugh right now so ... Prolly nothing.  

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: MrBill ]

[Hangtime]

Oh; horsepucky... what was it we were arguing about; anyway...

Jeeze; Toad.. it was still Eisenhowers war; not Kennedys.. like I said; he just inherited it. And yah missed Eisenhowers rather fancy dancing regarding the French..  oh; no; no OVERT support... but Air America was there in force, supplying the French that got their tits in the wringer up North against Unca Ho.

When the French pulled out; into the big sucking vaccum steps the good 'ol USA, propping up that fediddlein dipshit crook Diem. Also an Eisenhower program!

And what does ol Tricky Dick do, once LBJ messes the place up real good??

Invades Cambodia.

"Peace with Honor"  Not hardly.

Sheesh. How's THAT for a fulfilled campaign promise?

Oh... and thats NOT a cigar yer smokin.  

[Toad]

Hang, quit sucking on that "JFK was a Saint" memorial bong.

Truman, a Democrat you might have noticed, first recognized the Bao Dai puppet-French government.

***
"February 1950 - The United States and Britain recognize Bao Dai's French-controlled South Vietnam government."
***

Truman, a Democrat you might have noticed, sent the first massive aid to the French to help them fight in Vietnam. Remember as you read this that Ike didn't take office until January 20, 1953.

***
July 26, 1950 - United States military involvement in Vietnam begins as President Harry Truman authorizes $15 million in military aid to the French.

"American military advisors will accompany the flow of U.S. tanks, planes, artillery and other supplies to Vietnam. Over the next four years, the U.S. will spend $3 Billion on the French war and by 1954 will provide 80 percent of all war supplies used by the French."
***

Truman, a Democrat you might have noticed, sent the first US "advisors" to VietNam.

***
"September 27, 1950 - The U.S. establishes a Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) in Saigon to aid the French Army."

"8-3-1950 35 US personnel arrive, announce formation of MAAG (Military Assistance and Advisory Group, Vietnam

1951 - General Jean de Lattre de Tassigny, new French commander, goes to Washington to request more aid; receives 130,000 tons of new equip between 9-51 and Feb 52:53 million rounds of ammo, 8000 vehicles, 200 aircraft, 3500 radios, 14,000 automatic weapons,
***

If anything is attributable to IKE, it would be that he continued TRUMAN'S policy of monetary support of the French, TRUMAN'S policy of the MAAG to the French and TRUMAN'S policy of clandestine support.

Now, answer this Hang:

Who was the FIRST President to authorize US troops to engage in Combat in VietNam?

"October 24, 1961 - On the sixth anniversary of the Republic of South Vietnam, President Kennedy sends a letter to President Diem and pledges "the United States is determined to help Vietnam preserve its independence..."

President Kennedy then sends additional military advisors along with American helicopter units to transport and direct South Vietnamese troops in battle, thus involving Americans in combat operations.


Nice Red Herring on Ike though.

 

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]