Author Topic: Thirteen Days  (Read 1927 times)

Offline Hangtime

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Thirteen Days
« on: August 08, 2001, 05:04:00 PM »
The movies out on tape and DVD..

If you ain't seen it.. yah really oughta.

Then ask yourself what woulda happened if Tricky Dick won that election.

And ain't Curtiss LeMay the sacriest dude you ever saw?

Those F8 recon pilots deserve the Medal of Honor. "..20mm bird strikes.." When you stop to think about it; the whole ball of wax was square on their shoulders. Incredible, what they did... cost them their careers, too.

After the flick came out; more data became available. Seems the Russain Advisors had tactical nukes and the authority to use them on a US invasion fleet. And standing orders were to use the strategic nukes if the tacticals were launched against an invasion fleet. Castro wanted 'em launched when the recon birds went over... Now THAT scared the hell outta me.

Krueschev, when he heard about the tactical nukes, flat wigged out... ordered EVERYTHING outta Cuba, Tacs and Strats, and there was a very fast shuffle of personnel in the Kremlin. Soooooo very very close...
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline skernsk

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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2001, 05:21:00 PM »
Great movie!

I was on the edge of my seat.  I saw a biography on LeMay on speedvision.  That guy was diddlying crazy...seems that the entire group of "5 stars" wanted to go into Cuba.

Communication sure sucked back then didn't it.  
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What happened to end the career of the two pilots that went in low level?

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2001, 05:54:00 PM »
I believe they were cashiered for their refusal to positivley indicate they were fired upon. The JCS was incensed by their falsified official reports... particulary since they also had the real skinny on just what happened.

Anytime you want to know what the diffrence is between what an American military officer sees as his 'duty' and what a communist country's Officer corps determines as "duty" watch the interview tape of the Soviet Flight Officer that downed KAL flight 007.

Those F8 pilots were frekkin hero's, highest order. They KNEW they were bait; they chose to do the job; get the info, and use their heads. It should be noted that the movie is in error... they were NOT contacted by anybody in Washington to alter their reports.. they did it on their own.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Soulyss

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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2001, 06:43:00 PM »
I heard the movie really took a lot of liberty with the story and was quite a far cry from what actually happened? Is this so? I'm just curious, I haven't seen the film myself or really know all the details aside from what they tell you in school about the crisis itself.
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2001, 07:18:00 PM »
The movie seems to center on those 13 days... no mention of the 'missile gap provocations', no mention of the CIA and Kennedy Administration's ongoing in fact war against Castro, the assination attempts, Bay of Pigs, etc. It also downplays the Russian viewpoint.. in essence it's a snapshot of those 13 days couched in the USA (good guys) vs The USSR (bad guys) hollywod frame. In fact; the circumstances creating the Missile Crisis had plenty of lead in, and really didn't end till that November, none of which is in the film.

It's thirteen days.  :)

It's told from the vantage point of a Kennedy Advisor; who's real contribution and involvement was in fact significantly less than the movie portrays, and there are a few niggling little details they got wrong plus one or two they added I had'nt heard previously.

But of those 13 days in history it hits hard and pretty close to dead on. It's honest in it's depiction of Kennedy as not as the 'cool head' of legend but instead accuratley depcits him as unsure of his information; distrustful of his Military and very worried about whats happening... and going to happen.

I don't think everybodys gonna be happy with this, particluarly Cubans or Russians.. certainly no more than the Brits were enamored with 'Patriot'... but it's pretty freakin close to dead on the money, and it's an awsome look at how scary a place we were in....
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline MrBill

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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2001, 07:49:00 PM »
hangtime wrote:
"Then ask yourself what woulda happened if Tricky Dick won that election."

Prolly nothing, The Kremlin had just had 8 years of Ike and Richard, they were testing the new kids on the block. This opinion was held by quite a number of the white house and general staff at the time.

If you have seen the movie, then see "Missiles of October" released in '74, note the differences, then remember that in 82 congress reclassified the documents for another 20 years, (I bet next year they reclassify them again!).  Then THINK, hummm some of the fringe players telling "Hollywood" types stuff as they remember it 40 years later ;). Many of you will live to see the true story revealed, you can then watch these "old" movies and see how wrong they were.

skernsk wrote:
"Communication sure sucked back then didn't it."

You bet, no hot line to Moscow, and every paper was trinity coded and delivered, nothing verbal was considered reliable.  The most common phrase spoken was "is this correct"?

Tense times in the white house for sure.

been there done that  :eek:
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2001, 11:00:00 PM »
That's kinda funny... "prolly nothin"..

LOL!! That cracks me up!
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2001, 05:49:00 AM »
Seen the commercial on the Discovery Channel.

Gonna rent it as soon as the wind and rain semi-stops.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2001, 06:04:00 AM »
Great... thanks.... Give away the ending why don't ya.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2001, 10:04:00 AM »
Hangtime.
As far as I know Nixon was a very successful forign policy president. Certainly better then Kenendy. Is that mistaken?

Offline john9001

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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2001, 11:22:00 AM »
if kenendy had not mucked up the bay of pigs, there would have been no "13 days"

it was result of the aborted bay of pigs invasion that the missiles were put in cuba
in the 1st place

Offline Bluefish

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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2001, 12:55:00 PM »
Don't know about the accuracy of the movie-DO remember being scared witless at the time (we lived 25 miles from NYC and figured to go "poof" in the first exchange).  

BTW, if the Cuban scenario in Operational Art of War (don't remember if its I or II) is at all accurate, an attempted invasion of Cuba would have been one of the bloodiest U.S. military engagements since Antietam.  I remember reading somewhere that, during the crisis, one of JFK's advisors put a same-scale map of Tarawa on a table right next to a map of Cuba and invited Kennedy to extrapolate the casualty figures. It was, I think, a point very well taken.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2001, 04:59:00 PM »
LOL.. why does Kennedy still wear the onus of the Bay of Pigs fiasco? It was NOT his plan or his program.. it was Ike and his worm Dicky boy, and they were both hawks on Cuba, firmly in the pockets of the military/industrial complex and rabid over the loss of american buisness intrests in Cuba.

Kennedy refused to go whole hog with the US Military on the Bay of Pigs because the Russians made it very very clear the price would be immense, (Berlin) and a formal American Invasion would no doubt have brought us into a shooting war in Europe in short order. Kennedy took the brunt of the blame... but he did not deserve it.

 
Quote
By the winter of 1960, just a year after the Revolution, President Eisenhower and his key foreign policy advisers were convinced that Castro's government needed to be replaced-soon and by any means necessary. On March 17, 1960, Eisenhower authorized a Central Intelligence Agency plan, titled "A Program of Covert Action Against the Castro Regime." The document states that the program's objective is to "bring about the replacement of the Castro regime with one more devoted to the interests of the Cuban people and more acceptable to the U.S. in such a manner as to avoid the appearance of U.S. intervention."
 
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Fatty

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Thirteen Days
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2001, 05:01:00 PM »
I thought 13 days was a love story about Hangtime and Hairball on his boat.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2001, 05:21:00 PM »
Sorry, Hang. Not buying that one. Responsibility & Accountability. Who was the Commander-In-Chief on D-Day for the Bay of Pigs?

No one MADE Kennedy "green light" the invasion. He did that himself. As CinC, he bears the responsibility. He had the option to discontinue the Eisenhower planning and forbid the invasion. He absolutely did not choose to exercise that authority.

 http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/baypigs/pigs3.htm


By the time Kennedy took office in January of 1961, he had made serious commitments to the Cuban exiles, promising to oppose communism at every opportunity, and supporting the overthrow of Castro. During the campaign, Kennedy had repeatedly accused Eisenhower of not doing enough about Castro....

The original plan called for a daytime landing at Trinidad, a city on the southern coast of Cuba near the Escambray Mountains, but Kennedy thought the plan exposed the role of the United States too openly, and favored a nighttime landing at Bay of Pigs, which offered a suitable air-strip on the beach from which bombing raids could be operated. Once the bay was secured, the provisional Cuban government-in-arms set up by the CIA would be landed and immediately recognized by the U.S. The new government would request military support and a new “intervention” would take place.

Bissell states, “It is hard to believe in retrospect that the president and his advisers felt the plans for a large-scale, complicated military operation that had been ongoing for more than a year could be reworked in four days and still offer a high likelihood of success. It is equally amazing that we in the agency agreed so readily.”...

Once Kennedy became aware of the plan, opposition to the invasion was subtly discouraged. Various memos and notes kept from meetings prior to the invasion warned of potential problems and legal ramifications. At a meeting on January 28 the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff spoke strongly against invasion on the grounds that Castro’s forces were already too strong. At the same meeting, the Secretary of Defense estimated that all the covert measures planned against Castro, including propaganda, sabotage, political action and the planned invasion, would not produce “the agreed national goal of overthrowing Castro.”

On March 29 Senator Fulbright gave Kennedy a memo which stated, “To give this activity even covert support is of a piece with the hypocrisy and cynicism for which the United States is constantly denouncing the Soviet Union in the United Nations and elsewhere. This point will not be lost on the rest of the world—nor on our own consciences.”

A three-page memo from Under Secretary of State Chester A. Bowles to Secretary of State Dean Rusk on March 31 argued strongly against the invasion, citing moral and legal grounds.

At a meeting on April 4 in a small conference room at the State Department, Senator Fulbright verbally opposed the plan, as described by Arthur Schlesinger in his book A Thousand Days: “Fulbright, speaking in an emphatic and incredulous way, denounced the whole idea. The operation, he said, was wildly out of proportion to the threat. It would compromise our moral position in the world and make it impossible for us to protest treaty violations by the Communists. He gave a brave, old-fashioned American speech, honorable, sensible and strong; and he left everyone in the room, except me and perhaps the President, wholly unmoved."

Five days before D-Day, on April 12, Kennedy was asked at a press conference how far the U.S. would go to help an uprising against Castro. He answered: “First, I want to say that there will not be, under any conditions, an intervention in Cuba by the United States Armed Forces. This government will do everything it possibly can, I think it can meet its responsibilities, to make sure that there are no Americans involved in any actions inside Cuba… The basic issue in Cuba is not one between the United States and Cuba. It is between the Cubans themselves.”

“One further factor no doubt influenced him, “ writes Schlesinger, “the enormous confidence in his own luck. Everything had broken right for him since 1956. He had won the nomination and the election against all the odds in the book. Everyone around him thought he had the Midas touch and could not lose. Despite himself, even this dispassionate and skeptical man may have been affected by the soaring euphoria of the new day.”


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