Son of Theological Question

[moot]

For Seagoon.

Hi Seagoon,

Of what practical use is religion?
I.e. in a strictly rational perspective, why bother with something akin to chaos  (considering it can neither be predicted nor understood) to live a life that works just as well, if not better, all by itself?
Why would I need anything else than myself?  Or anyone, themselves?

Thanks in advance.

[Goth]

Why form your answer as a question?

[moot]

Seagoon's reply, first.

[john9001]

because people cannot deal with reality, the here and now, they need to believe in a future, that if they follow the rules of their religion they will reach the land of milk and honey( or 72 virgins)

i have already talked to god about this , he said not to worry, just try to gain knowledge and don't hurt anybody else and it will be ok, life is just a game.

[moot]

The future starts now john.  If you don't believe in the present, the future doesn't happen.. it doesn't just magicaly happen out of thin air, it needs a cause, and that cause happens every moment.

And besides, believeing in a future couldn't be of any reassurance unless the belief was real, in other words, credible, something other than nonsense.  
In other words, they want to hear something real to light the "end of their tunnel".

I'd like to wait for Seagoon's reply before any argument or conclusions.

[Seagoon]

Hello Moot,

Originally posted by moot
For Seagoon.

Hi Seagoon,

Of what practical use is religion?
I.e. in a strictly rational perspective, why bother with something akin to chaos  (considering it can neither be predicted nor understood) to live a life that works just as well, if not better, all by itself?
Why would I need anything else than myself?  Or anyone, themselves?

Thanks in advance.

Good question, first I'd like to discriminate between the practical usefulness of religion, and the real usefulness of religion.

Many religions can be considered practically useful for a time in improving one's overall quality of life both individually and socially. For instance, many non-religious people who visit our church or who interact with the members of our congregation are initially intrigued or impressed by the practical outworking of the faith of our members. Many of them have been raised in environments where everyone essentially did what was right in their own eyes and have ordered their own families that way, and so sometimes they'll actually come right out and ask questions like "How do you get your children to sit still for an hour? How is it that your marriages stay together? Why do the members of your church love one another and look out for one another? How do you stop drinking, doing drugs, swearing, having terrible relationships?" and so on. I've actually gotten all of those questions, and as society continues to come apart at the seams, the differences between people who "have it together" and are visibly at peace and even happy and those who don't becomes more noticeable. And as a result, many may be led to look into religion or embrace it because their own worldview is failing and making them and their families thoroughly miserable.

Now I'm not about to claim for a moment that Christianity is the only religion that can produce a practical change or even improvement in the way people live their lives. For instance, one of the many reasons that Islam is so popular in prisons today is that it does offer stability, order, masculinity, and a rule of life to men who have grown up in circumstances that are uniformly dysfunctional, matriarchical, and chaotic. Therefore for them there is a practical benefit to becoming Muslims in that their lives are better than before.

But to embrace a religion only considering its potential practical benefits for a time is to put the cart before the horse, because the real question that needs to be answered is not what might it do for me but, "is it true?" After all, I might find peace in trusting in the Easter Bunny to provide me with life after death, but since there is no truth to my faith, it will ultimately have proved only to be a panacea. A false religion, founded on falsehoods, is like a placebo men swallow to make them feel better while they are dying of a terminal disease, but which does them no real good in the long run and which   kept them from seeking a real cure when they had the chance.

So the Bible, for instance, doesn't call upon men to believe in Jesus Christ that they might enjoy practical benefits for a time, it calls upon them to believe in Jesus Christ that they might have the real benefit of being saved from their sin and enjoying eternal life. I for instance, did not become a Christian because I wanted a better regulated life, I became a Christian because I came to the conclusion that the Biblical message was true, that I was a sinner, and that only through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ could I be saved from a justly deserved damnation. I assessed that the real usefulness of religion was in whether it had the power to Save, and I assessed that only faith in Christ had the power to do that.

I based that decision not on my personal inclinations or opinions or desires (in fact they were directly opposed to those conclusions prior to my believing), I came to that conclusion based on what I was told in scripture, which I judged to be the revelation of God to men and not merely more words of men. That once-for-all revelation, the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints as Jude put it is of course the safeguard against chaos. Christianity is not about your opinions or my opinions or doing what is right in my eyes or yours, its about listening to and accepting the revealed will of God.

Of course there have been a practical usefulness to becoming a Christian as my heart and behavior has dramatical changed as a result, but that is the fruit that is supposed to result from salvation, not the reason for believing.

Speaking to Christians about that relationship between salvation and good works and the real usefulness of Christianity, Paul wrote this:

"Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:1-4)

Hope this helps,

SEAGOON

[ChickenHawk]

Originally posted by moot
For Seagoon.

Hi Seagoon,

Of what practical use is religion?
I.e. in a strictly rational perspective, why bother with something akin to chaos  (considering it can neither be predicted nor understood) to live a life that works just as well, if not better, all by itself?
Why would I need anything else than myself?  Or anyone, themselves?

Thanks in advance.

I know you asked Seagoon this question, but I thought I'd share my personal belief with you.  I'll not speak for anyone else so take it for what it is, one man's opinion.

This life is but a short blip in the vast expanse of eternity.  What we are here for is to prepare for the next phase, a place and time where sin does not exist, where we can live with our Creator and Savior.  In order to get there we need to mold our characters to reject that which is bad and love that which is good.  In short, to build a character that can live in harmony with God.  The only way to do that is by giving our lives to God and accepting His forgiveness for our sins.  Religion is a way to do this.

Organized religion had gotten a bad rap, and in many cases for good reason.  Religion is not your ticket to Heaven. A personal relationship with God and a Christ like character are.  Religion is one way to get there. I am in fact a member of a religious denomination, but in my opinion you could get to Heaven without organized religion.

If this life is all your looking for, than there is no reason for religion.  If you're looking for something more, than a personal relationship with God is your ticket.

[john9001]

quote"Christianity is not about your opinions or my opinions or doing what is right in my eyes or yours, its about listening to and accepting the revealed will of God.""


revealed by who?

[Seagoon]

Hello John,

Originally posted by john9001
quote"Christianity is not about your opinions or my opinions or doing what is right in my eyes or yours, its about listening to and accepting the revealed will of God.""


revealed by who?

I guess since this quote was from my answer, that the question is addressed to me. The doctrine is called inspiration and simply put it is the biblical teaching that the scriptures are literally the word of God. We see this for instance, in the Apostle Paul's declaration that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16) or Peter's declaration that fundamental to our understanding of scripture is "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:20)

The word Paul used which is translated "inspiration" is the Greek word Theopneustos meaning literally "God breathed" and conveys in a wonderful image the idea that via the agency of the Holy Spirit working in His ordained messengers (prophets, apostles, etc.) He breathed His word into the world.

The old Princeton theologian A.A. Hodge summarized the doctrine of inspiration in the following way:

All the canonical Scriptures were divinely inspired, and are thus given us as an authoritative rule of faith and practice.

The books of Scripture were written by the instrumentality of men, and the national and personal peculiarities of their authors  have been evidently as freely expressed in their writing, and their natural faculties, intellectual and moral, as freely exercised in their production, as those of the authors of any other writings. Nevertheless these books are, one and all, in thought and verbal expression, in substance and form, wholly the Word of God, conveying with absolute accuracy and divine authority all that God meant them to convey, without any human additions or admixtures. This was accomplished by a supernatural influence of the Spirit of God acting upon the spirits of the sacred writers, called “inspiration”; which accompanied them uniformly in what they wrote; and which, without violating the free operation of their faculties, yet directed them in all they wrote, and secured the infallible expression of it in words. The nature of this divine influence we, of course, can no more understand than we can in the case of any other miracle. But the effects are plain and certain—viz., that all written under it is the very Word of God, of infallible truth, and of divine authority; and this infallibility and authority attach as well to the verbal expression in which the revelation is conveyed as to the matter of the revelation itself.

The fact that the Scriptures are thus inspired is proved because they assert it of themselves; and because they must either be credited as true in this respect, or rejected as false in all respects; and because God authenticated the claims of their writers by accompanying their teaching with “signs and wonders and divers miracles” (Heb. 2:4). Wherever God sends his “sign,” there he commands belief; but it is impossible that he could unconditionally command belief except to truth infallibly conveyed.

(1) The Old Testament writers claimed to be inspired (Deut. 31:19–22; 34:10; Num. 16:28,29; 2 Sam. 23:2). As a characteristic fact, they speak in the name of God, prefacing their messages with a “Thus saith the LORD,” “The mouth of the LORD hath spoken it” (Deut. 18:21,22; 1 Kings 21:19; Jer. 9:12, etc.).
(2) The New Testament writers introduce their quotations from the Old Testament with such formulas as, “The Holy Ghost saith” (Heb. 3:7); “The Holy Ghost this signifying” (Heb. 9:8); “Saith God” (Acts 2:17; 1 Cor. 9:9,10); “The Lord  by the mouth of his servant David saith” (Acts 4:25); “The Lord limiteth in David a certain day, saying” (Heb. 4:7).
(3) The inspiration of the Old Testament is expressly affirmed in the New Testament (Luke 1:70; Heb. 1:1; 2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Pet. 1:10–12; 2 Pet. 1:21).
(4) Christ and his apostles constantly quote the Old Testament as infallible, as that which must be fulfilled (Matt. 5:18; John 10:35; Luke 24:44; Matt. 2:15–23, etc.).
(5) Inspiration was promised to the apostles (Matt. 10:19; 28:19,20; Luke 12:12; John 13:20; 14:26; 15:26,27; 16:13).
(6) They claimed to have the Spirit, in fulfillment of the promise of Christ (Acts 2:33; 15:28; 1 Thess. 1:5); to speak as the prophets of God (1 Cor. 4:1; 1 Thess. 4:8); to speak with plenary authority (1 Cor. 2:13; 2 Cor. 13:2–4; Gal. 1:8,9). They put their writings on a level with the Old Testament Scriptures (2 Pet. 3:16; 1 Thess. 5:27).

Now John I understand that given your repeated claims that God speaks to you directly, in all probability you won't accept a word of this. I on the other hand do not hear from God immediately, all His revelation to me has been mediated by way of the Bible. This does not mean he doesn't speak, but it does mean that I get his revelation via His written Word.

-- Seagoon

[john9001]

seagoon i respect your beliefs, one thing is certain, when we die we will know the truth.

[VOR]

Originally posted by john9001
seagoon i respect your beliefs, one thing is certain, when we die we will know the truth.

Or, in our oblivion, not remember that there was ever a question. The cessation of consciousness is a strange thing to contemplate.