Hero Or Criminal???????

[Dowding]

 

I remember reading all those; you'll noticed that in none of them is their evidence that the Commanding Officer took action to "find" what is portrayed as the "deserter".

Now I don't know much about this case, but I'm guessing that influence further up the command structure might have helped.

Perhaps there were incentives for silence?

It's not impossible, and it was so long ago, very few people would remember it.

[Fatty]

Amazing blur, I didn't think so many wild conspiracy theories could even fit in one article.  Is there a sequel, or is this part of a bigger series?  It's right up there with the late Robert Ludlum.

[blur]

 

Originally posted by Fatty:
Amazing blur, I didn't think so many wild conspiracy theories could even fit in one article.  Is there a sequel, or is this part of a bigger series?  It's right up there with the late Robert Ludlum.

Fatty, try a spoonful of sugar next time, it'll make the truth easier to swallow.  

[Toad]

Dowding,

Every military organization has a method to keep track of its personnel to make sure they show up when they are supposed to.

If Bush bolted, someone HAD to notice. There is paperwork for this stuff.

As I mentioned, however, the Air Guard of the 60's and 70's sort of prided itself on doing away with useless paperwork.

I would guess that someone noticed he wasn't showing up and booted that fact upstairs to the CO. The CO probably just decided they didn't need him anyway and that was the end of it.

I will also wager this: I bet he wasn't the only guy in a Guard unit that just "walked away" back then. I further bet that those people weren't "pursued" any more than he was.

I personally know of guys that ignored their committment and walked off after their particular draft status was no longer a threat to their lifestyle. Nobody cared, simple as that.

[blur]

Anybody catch this story on 60 Minutes II?

If it comes down to believing the story of an old Vietnamese woman or a U.S. Senator, I'm inclined to go with the old woman.  

[Nash]

<hears the thunk thunking noise Toad's makin' with the mike>

You called? Oh yeah... that... Thanks for the reply.  

Let's see here...

I *think* I understand yer angle Toad...

...That there was a sort of looseness about the Guard... that it had accountability problems that made it cumbersome to track a deserter (George Bush Jr. in this case), or possibly lacked the will (for lack of a better word) to go after said deserter, if this deserter *were* discovered as having deserted.

I would totally agree with you in that I think probably some form or combination of the above played a part in George Bush Jr.'s having gotten away with desertion  

Back when we were having this discussion, I remember it as regarding "personal accountability" or "personal responsibility" or... jeez I forget... Was all in relation to politics though. Perhaps it was of the almost hypocritical support of one guy while turning a blind eye to another's same actions. Anyway, you remember the phrase you kept using.

So when I brought that up then posted those links I was interested in how your thinking went on that. I certainly didn't expect now to see you comment only related to either:

"CO just decided they didn't need him anyway"

or

"I bet he wasn't the only guard to walk away"

or

"Nobody cared"

Well yeah, true, so be it... But that's not really what I was asking. I would have thought something about his having deserted (and *not* the 'environment' that enabled his be able to do so) would have been the thing that you would have replied to. If you said the same thing in that old thread that you've just said here, it would have looked radically out of place. I doubt you would have replied that way at all  

Or is it now "personal accountability... mostly"  

Just for your reference (two posts that you made in that thread):

 

Nash, I think the initial animosity towards BC stemmed primarily from his own history. He was being called "Slick Willie" long before he became Prez.
For me, the basic, initial animosity stems from his draft dodging. I'll admit, I hated to see a guy like that get the Presidency.

Then this, when I brought up Bush's *own* <cough> history:

 

Nash,

Ever been in the service?

Being AWOL is a serious charge. For Bush, in this case, it means he had written orders to report to whatever unit in Alabama and didn't show up (IIRC the point that web page was trying to make).

It's been a while since I read that page you've been clipping. What's the address? I'd like to see what they have for proof. I'd think if he really did go AWOL there'd be something substantial and verifiable in the public record. The military knew where to find him; there should be something in writing.

Now beyond the AWOL charge (and I'm not ready to really give that creedence without seeing more on it) Bush still served 22 months in the Texas Air Guard. I've mentioned before that the Guard committment from UPT is about 24 months. So it may be that he "did his duty".

Can't say that about Bill in any case.

Pass on your source(s) for the AWOL charge. I'd like to re-read that stuff.

"A serious charge" has now become "nobody cared". In Clinton's case, "for me, the basic, initial animosity stems from his draft dodging" looks a bit odd when put beside your sudden laissez-faire take on the whole thing.

Sorry 'bout this Toad... But after our debates back then, I reckon' I probably still owe ya a few zingers... You perform better when folks are keepin' ya on yer toes anyways  

And d'oh! Please accept my apologies if I'm mangling that accountability phrase.

<edited my brutal spelling, or most of it I hope>



[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 05-03-2001).]

[Yoj]

 

Originally posted by blur:
Anybody catch this story on 60 Minutes II?

If it comes down to believing the story of an old Vietnamese woman or a U.S. Senator, I'm inclined to go with the old woman.  

Especially when its backed up by another US soldier who was there (and who he said he would not contradict).

- Yoj

[Toad]

Well, Nash, I didn't re-read that old post fest, so maybe I didn't zero in exactly on your issue here.

OK.

Where is the AWOL paper trail? That's what I was talking about in the 1st thread. In this thread it is still unavailable.

So, did he desert? That's still your question and there is apparently still no documentation.

Given the nature of the Guard, I doubt there ever will be.

Can an AWOL charge ever be substantiated without that paperwork? I doubt that too.

So do any of us really know how his "career" really ended? Nope. You realize there should be some discharge paperwork as well. You know, "Honorable Discharge" and "Dishonorable Discharge" and plain old "Discharge."  If he walked, there's no way he should have gotten anything but "Dishonorable".

Anyone found any Discharge paperwork? That would probably tell part of the tale.

Not sure if I addressed your point...

He still served. Far more than BC can say.
BC's successful attempt to duck the draft IS documented.

...ah, like a trip down memory lane, isn't it?  

[Nash]

Hehe Toad, sure is  

Erhm... yeah... I reckon that I can't add much to this now anyways. What isn't known, just isn't known.

Cheers!

[MrLars]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
He still served. Far more than BC can say.
BC's successful attempt to duck the draft IS documented.

There is one major difference 'tween the two. BC decided to be true to his conviction that the war was immoral and he would have nothin' to do with it, politcal career damned!
GWB decided to take the safest way to avoid the war and preserve his politcal career.

So, just who is the worst? The one who, by his actions, stayed out of the war cause he didn't belive in it and accepted the politcal fallout whan it came...or

The one that used his familys influence to stay safe state side and thus preserve his politcal career?

I'm a Nam Vet and this thing that GWB did is, to me, a helluva lot more cowardly!



------------------
Lars
***MOL***
Men Of Leisure

[Wingnut_0]

The Kerry Story is an interesting one.  Did he or didn't he?  If he did, the following orders bit doesn't cut it.  I've done my service and the UCMJ was my bible.  So texace trust me when I say lawful orders are just that....

Now I fully understand that context in which Kerry was fighting.  A war without clear boundaries and full of partisans.  But if he did murder civilians, and that is still in question, he is no different than most of the war criminals that have been brought in front of the Hague.

His actions would be no different than most of the Bosnians being sought or already brought to the Hague on war crimes.

The only difference is that no American will EVER stand trial on war crimes in an outside of America court.  The American government, though a big pusher of the world courts will never let a member of it's own country stand before it.  

Unfortunately the only ppl that will probably ever officially investigate this is the media.  

[Toad]

That's a good one, Lars.