Why are so many pacifists?

[AKDejaVu]

I think the idea of requiring a bunch of people to join the military means you are going to get a bunch of people that don't want to be there... with no war to take their attention off of things.

AKDejaVu

[loser]

quote:

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SOB, I believe that this thread is speaking of the preservation of our country and the freedoms that we have...that would include having a draft. After all, a country prepared is a country not invaded. (Forget who said that, but, having a big ocean on either side helps too!)
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end quote

Last time i looked, western "freedom" was not really being threatened that much.  

True we see a few small isolated groups of people burning flags.. waving signs and lighting things on fire in their own country.

And occassionally one of these individuals straps a bomb to mimself or a car etc.. and blows it up in a terrorist act.  I still dont see where your freedom, "democracy," and the like is being threatened.

I see nothing wrong with miliatry service or the military itself.  But at the same time i dont think that they protect "freedom."

To me the milatry performs a few simple functions:

-means of employment ( and this goes from slackjawed idiot to a potential nuclear technician.)

-provides discipline and structure to the lives of people... if not because the person needs it, then because it is neccessary for the unit to function as a whole.

-an essential source of economic support.
(be it raw materials, manufacturing, contracting...you get the picture.)

okay so that's i my thoughts on why there is a military. I feel that the military is there to resolve things once the minds and imaginations (and tempers) of our leaders give out.

now for the last part of my boring argument:

the functions of jails and in turn criminals in or society:

-means of employment. (countless numbers of correctional officers, janitors,lawyers, judges, police officers, ballifs, guards, and yes even prisoners are employed as a result of criminals and the prison system...im not going to bother researching the numbers...but i bet eveyone knows at least one person either employed in the prison system, or working withing it as an inmate.)

-provides discipline and structure to the lives of people... if not because the person needs it, then because it is neccessary for the unit to function as a whole.
(notice it iis exactly the same as above.)

-an essential source of economic support.
(be it through the billions in insurance dollars that change hands because of theft, vandalism..., the countless dollars in materials consumed by prisoners in the prison system...)

now absolutley no one would argue that citizens should be drafted into criminal behavior.

now dont go all flame on me guys... im not saying people in the military are criminals nor are they really related,  however i will say that there is a correllation between the two groups in regards to the functions they perform for society as a whole

p.s. to anyone who has every been victim of a crime or criminal activity, i am not meaning to invalidate your experience or sluff it off as a point of conversation only.

[miko2d]

 The good saying is "Any country has an army - either it's own or somebody else's".

 loser,
 In US the army is not providing any of the unctions you've mentioned.
 Our army is small, our unemployment is smaller and there is a considerable screening to make sure that people that "need structure" do not get into the Army.
 Any area of human occupation has effects you've mentioned - there is structure and janitors in a potatohouse.

 Army is there to provide apply force if needed - hopefully to protect our interests.

 miko

[Nash]

 

We are bad
We are good
we got 2 oceans
While canucks chop wood.
-Sturm

Nice little poem... but wtf is that supposed to mean?

[Dune]

 

No state has an inherent right to survive through conscript troops and in the long run, no state ever has.  Roman matrons used to say to their sons, 'Come back with your shield, or on it.'  Later on, this custom declined.  So did Rome.

- Robert A. Heinlein

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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona

[leonid]

I'll just say that freedom means being able to do as you wish.  So, I wish to be a pacifist.

As far as fighting goes, I'll fight for this country if it means protecting its citizens from unwarranted outside aggression, but not if it means keeping Dupont or 3M in business.  Multinationals can fund their own mercenary army if they want to.

[StSanta]

"The draft needs to be reimplemented so US citizens can have a better understanding of what the military is.

Nothing like an up-close personal experience to focus the true meaning of the job of the military.

We need leadership that understands that the military is no place to experiment with social engineering!!"

ROFL, what is this you're suggesting? SOCIAL ENGINEERING.

ROFL, couldn't pass on this one. Too ironic  

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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[StSanta]

Oh, btw, we have a conscription army here.

And, i must tell you, this idea I find lacking.

Basically, your pro freedom government is forcing you, under threat of punishment, to serve the armed forces for a very low sum of money, well below the minimum wage you'd get from other kinds of work for working 24h hours a day. For 9-12 months or so.

Doesn't this sit poorly in the freedom loving American minds? To have a GOVERNMENT use FORCE if necessary to essentially get it's citizens...no SUBJECTS, to work as (let's face it) slaves?

This is the essence of it.

I got lucky. because the Danish armed forces do not need every abled body man, only part of the draftees actually do military service. And, it's decided by lottery. I just had to do some medic stuff and, unless there's a war within the next 10 years, that's the last I hear from them.

A professional army is to prefer over a forced slave army consisting of unmotivated *men* (sexist, why only men eh?), who might get their fellow soldiers killed due to their attitude to the whole thing.

So, you really have to make up your minds. I see a lot of inconsistencies here from the freedom loving individuals. You want the government to use you at will as slave labourers or not? you want personal freedoms and respect of the constitution or not?

I may be wrong, but at least I am consistently so  .

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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[loser]

 

Originally posted by leonid:
I'll just say that freedom means being able to do as you wish.  So, I wish to be a pacifist.

As far as fighting goes, I'll fight for this country if it means protecting its citizens from unwarranted outside aggression, but not if it means keeping Dupont or 3M in business.  Multinationals can fund their own mercenary army if they want to.

EXACTLY!

[Sturm]

So your saying the israelis are slaves in their army?  I did my time in the USAF and the pay was not as bad as many might think, if you ever get the luxury stop by a air base and look at the parking lot.  Almost all the cars are brand new, I was never hurting except for the first few months I was in.  

Once I made a couple ranks money was not an issue, with the tax breaks you recieve it is great.  At any rate what the air force did for me was give me a skill once I left the usaf so that I can go out in the civilian world and apply it to a well paying job.  I have been out for almost a year I more then doubled my 24,000 pay "equates to over 35K a year with tax breaks".  

I would highly recommend the air force to anyone, you get what you put in it IMO.  

[Tuomio]

Whats freedom? Freedom is anarchy and anarchy  is self-destructive, so what i believe were talking about is freedom over your own body and mind.
That kind of freedom is for instance, that i can go out and smoke a big fat joint without fear of becoming arrested. Am i able to do that? NO.
Other instance is, that i am able to participate in put-up votes of things, that im interested (example: voting for Finnish EU membership related things). Am i able to do that. NO.

So if im going to defend something (ive been in finnish army), im not doing that to defend my freedom (which i dont currently have like i should have), but to defend myself from enemy tyranny, which he would do if he could decide it.

If i were US citizen, i would never go in US army, because it has fighted many overseas figths with absolutely unjustified reasons, like in Vietnam. And they will fight again with stupid reasons, because when theres no real threats, they have to be made up to "justify" the huge budget of the US army. US would be cheap to _defend_, but thats not apparently enough for them.

Btw did you know, that Bush has family business in major jail food kitchens. Do Bush think about hes stock shares, when hes making decicions? Nooo noo that couldnt be possible, hes a HONOURABLE man with BIG LOVING HEARTH.

[Sturm]

Smacks Tuomio around a bit.  WTF are you talking about?  Are you on crack?

 

That kind of freedom is for instance, that i can go out and smoke a big fat joint without fear of becoming arrested. Am i able to do that? NO.

You just have to no where to go and not get caught.  Therefore there is no fear.  Duh!

I am thinking you have way to much bong resin stuck upstairs to think clearly.  Everything is good to do in moderation but going thru a half O a day will make ya loopy.  Sit back enjoy the ride and quit thinking polotics you need some schooling there big time.

[Dowding]

Sturm wrote:

 

I study history as a past time, fire away.

The he wrote:

 

Sorry but teh UK can't take us either,they had a hard enough time with argentina.

Err.. check your history books... we didn't invade Argentina, we sailed the length of an ocean to defend an island from a country, who was only a few dozen miles from said island.

And at least we completed our objectives. Enough said.

 

At any rate I don't think you got the jist of what i was saying.

Err... this is what you said:

 

Shame on those that publicly deface the military and for what it has done for us.

And this:

 

To me pacifists seem a little light in the loafers as well but that is my opinion.

So you believe that public criticism of the armed forces is a 'shameful' act, and furthermore, pacifists are weak and cowardly?

It seems to me you don't understand 'freedom' at all, despite what you might say. Freedom is to publically, peacefully, disagree with anything in the establishment. And that includes the military.

I positively encourage anyone to do so; I might not agree with them, but I respect their right to demonstrate their dissent. Even anti-abortionists. The day peaceful demonstrations dissapear from my streets, I will know democracy is dead in my country.

To your slur on pacifists; how is going into no-man's-land unarmed to stretcher away the wounded, all the time being sniped at by the other side, a cowardly act? Because that is exactly what many pacifists did in WW1. Pacifist medics in WW2 were close enough to the front line to be shelled, strafed etc. Yet they did their jobs and saved lives, even if they did not agree with the war itself.

I regard them as highly as those that carried a gun.

 

If you think it is honorable to go around bashing the military and then turn your tail and run when the heat is on, I have no respect for you and would offer you to teh enemy in a heart beat.

Oh, you are the hard man, aren't you? Who are you trying to kid?

'Offer you to the enemy in a heart beat' - lol

To yourself, 'freedom' is the right to share your views. Which is a very sad thing indeed.



[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-28-2001).]

[Cabby]

Heheh, smoke more dope and get in "in touch with your feminine side".  That'll make a "pacifist" out of anyone.....

Cabby

[AG Sachsenberg]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:
Sturm wrote:

  Oh, you are the hard man, aren't you? Who are you trying to kid?

'Offer you to the enemy in a heart beat' - lol

To yourself, 'freedom' is the right to share your views. Which is a very sad thing indeed.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-28-2001).]

Whoo did I just piss off the brownies or what?  As far as Argentina whoop dee frekin doo so you had to sail a few thousand miles.  How many ships did you lose again?  Pretty sad you have to use for your defense the ocean was the problem.  Logistics is one thing proper planning is another.  It was by shear stroke of luck you guys won down there.

Now run along before I put on my flaming suit just for you.  

 

To your slur on pacifists; how is going into no-man's-land unarmed to stretcher away the wounded, all the time being sniped at by the other side, a cowardly act? Because that is exactly what many pacifists did in WW1. Pacifist medics in WW2 were close enough to the front line to be shelled, strafed etc. Yet they did their jobs and saved lives, even if they did not agree with the war itself.

 And Sir Dingles when did I ever say anything bad about medics?  Just because I stated that the ambulance drivers were not at the "front lines" as stated.  

You have proven to me you can try and distort the truth, and my sayings.  Nothing more.    

Run along Mrs Dowdfire.

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[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 04-28-2001).]