Why are so many pacifists?

[mrfish]

 

Originally posted by cabby:
Heheh, smoke more dope and get in "in touch with your feminine side".  That'll make a "pacifist" out of anyone.....

cabby's argument:

"being a pacifist is a bad thing"

rephrased by definition:

"being against war is a bad thing"

which makes the anticedent:

"being for war is a good thing."

so your position is that people who object to violence are weak and effeminate and people who endear violence are strong and masculine? interesting - primitive, but interesting.

[Cabby]

Heheh, MrFish your logic is apalling.  BTW, the best Defense is a good Offense.......

Cabby

[Loyalist]

Picture a world where everyone is a pacifist.  I sure would rather live in that one.

[mrfish]

 

Originally posted by cabby:
Heheh, MrFish your logic is apalling.  BTW, the best Defense is a good Offense.......
Cabby

which part isnt supported by your statements? which part fails?

[Tuomio]

 

Smacks Tuomio around a bit.  WTF are you talking about?  Are you on crack?

No i dont use crack, because im interested of my future health.

 

You just have to no where to go and not get caught.  Therefore there is no fear.  Duh!

And i can drive without licence and not get caught in my lifetime. Hmm..Does that mean, that driving licence isnt needed, or that i just have luck not getting caught driving without it?

 

I am thinking you have way to much bong resin stuck upstairs to think clearly.  Everything is good to do in moderation but going thru a half O a day will make ya loopy.  Sit back enjoy the ride and quit thinking polotics you need some schooling there big time.

Its nice that you know what i use and how often i use it.  You have good arguments there boy.
Now my grandfather has been in the war and last time he talked about it wasnt any glorious mambo youve been talking about. Maybe he just doesent know as good as you do..
Im not pacifist but that doesent mean i would love war somehow or that pacifists were wrong. Personal freedoms include freedom of speech and thats one thing that kinds of you dont like people to have.

edit: There were 5 million marijuana arrests made under Clintons(i didnt inhale) administration last YEAR so somebody IS getting caught and some of them get long prison sentences. I dont live in US, but basicly the same thing goes on in every country, except Spain, Holland and Switzerland, where they have defacto legalization of MJ.

[This message has been edited by Tuomio (edited 04-29-2001).]

[Dowding]

Is it Sturm or this LW leutenant? It would have been nice if you could have come back on the majority of my post... but hey, no doubt being officer in the LW is very time consuming. What was the point of the name change and the use of the signature? Pretending to be a LW pilot in some online game won't buy you any credibility. I'm sorry, it just won't.

Many medics were pacifists, which is something you clearly cannot recognise (read my post again). You attack pacifists, many medics were pacifists, therefore you can't recognise the work that they did.

As for Argentina, the fact that reinforcements and supplies had to travel 8000 miles might have proved a problem to any army, nevermind one as small as Britain's. The whole battle was a 'close run thing', but it was not 'shear luck'. If you knew anything about military history, you'd know that a military campaign needs a little luck if it is to succeed.

This is an indication of how much luck it took:

Though outnumbered (2 to 1: 600 vs. over 1400), low on ammunition, lacking adequate fire support, fighting over open ground, and in daylight against prepared positions, the 2-para emerges as the winner in this first big and critical land battle. British 2-Para Lt. Col. "H" Jones dies in this battle and later awarded a Victoria Cross.[/i]

I'd say training, blood and sacrifice took Goose Green, 8000 miles from home, on an island just off the coast of Argentina. It's a shame you can't recognise that fact.

As I said before, they completed their objectives and liberated the Flaklands. The whole affair triggered a political uprising in Argentina - which was a good thing.

 

You have proven to me you can try and distort the truth, and my sayings.

I don't need to distort your 'sayings' - it's there in black and white.

'Run along Mrs. Dowdfire'? Is that really the best you can do?! I'll be honest - it means about 2 percent of nothing to me.

Run along tough guy, and when you see the enemy, offer me to him in a heartbeat. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-29-2001).]

[Jekyll]

 

Heheh, MrFish your logic is apalling. BTW, the best Defense is a good Offense.......

And of course, the essence of offence is the element of surprise.

So, extending Cabby's logic, the best defence would be to launch a complete surprise attack on a potential aggressor, preferably before they even THOUGHT about becoming an aggressor  

Calm down Cabby.. just foolin'  

[AG Sachsenberg]

HIt a soft spot there didn't I Dowdy?  I am glad you can take such honor in the defeating of the argentinians.  Tell me when does a WW2 cruiser pose a threat to a modern navy such as great Britains?  Don't try and distort the facts of a few certain battles were the GB were outnumbered against the argentinians lol.  

I am sorry if my post has offended you      Do you even know the true meaning of a pacifists?  Look it up and come back and talk.


   

Is it Sturm or this LW leutenant? It would have been nice if you could have come back on the majority of my post... but hey, no doubt being officer in the LW is very time consuming. What was the point of the name change and the use of the signature? Pretending to be a LW pilot in some online game won't buy you any credibility. I'm sorry, it just won't.

Dowdy I really do not want to waste my time writing more then I have to towards your responses.  As far as the name change I did that a week ago.  Most who know me I go by those two nicks.  Any rate my LW rank has nothing to do with this conversation, piss poor attempt at a flame there.    

A pacifist is and always will run from the action, I am sorry if survival doesn't inherently stick in their heads.  If I have to fight to save my family or country I will.  I think being a pacifist is rather selfish in the sense you are thinking of yourself more then the well being of others.

Watching your family being butchered because your thoughts on picking up a gun interfered or your feelings toward violence. So how do you defend yourself or your family from an intruder?  Call the police and hope they get there in time?

My question to everyone what made you a pacifist?  

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[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 04-29-2001).]

[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 04-29-2001).]

[Dowding]

'Distort the facts'?

Yet again, I find I must point out what exactly are the facts. The British were outnumbered at every major engagement they entered into. They faced troops that had been entrenched on hill-sides for weeks (including highly trained mercenaries and Special Forces). They had to carry EVERYTHING from the beach-head to the front-line, because the Atlantic Conveyor had been sunk (it carried the Chinooks).

They then carried out an assault knowing that there was no reserve and the only ammo they had, was the ammo they carried.

So, tough guy, don't take anything away from their efforts.

As for the Belgrano - it was a legitimate target. Not a troop ship or passenger liner or hospital ship, but a battleship. Who cares if it was sailing away or towards the Falklands, if the Argentinian Junta didn't want it to be sunk, why did they even bother having it near the warzone and why did they invade the Falklands in the first place?

BTW, it isn't a 'soft spot'. I wasn't there and I don't know how you can 'take honour' from anything. I think you mean 'take pride'.

What's this about a 'flame'? No I'm just pointing out how ignorant you are considering you purport to be an amateur historian. In case you didn't know, watching the history channel does not really count.

And again, you fail to see how pacifists have helped many, many people in times of war.

You wrote:

 

Do you even know the true meaning of a pacifists? Look it up and come back and talk.

Then you wrote:

 

I think being a pacifist is rather selfish in the sense you are thinking of yourself more then the well being of others.

I suggest it is YOU who should examine a dictionary.

[StSanta]

Geesh a pacifist can be merely a person who refuse to bear arms due to moral or religious reasons.

A pacifist CAN have an active role in a war, and there are several examples and roles a pacifist can play.



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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Loyalist]

A pacifist is just someone who does not like confrontation.

[AG Sachsenberg]

Dowding I knew you weren't there, you clearly showed us that.
British intelligence found out 4 days prior to the invasion it wasn't until the invasion did they sail a fleet there.

   

As for the Belgrano - it was a legitimate target. Not a troop ship or passenger liner or hospital ship, but a battleship. Who cares if it was sailing away or towards the Falklands, if the Argentinian Junta didn't want it to be sunk, why did they even bother having it near the warzone and why did they invade the Falklands in the first place?

Just to let ya know the Belgrano was not a battleship but a heavy cruiser, so don't try and make it look meaner and bigger then it actually was.  I love how you make the Argentinians out to be a ruthless impressive military.  There pilots yes were top notched, but everything you have written I believe you just went out thru the net and cut and pasted.  Your knowledge of this war is from the internet, do you even know why this started?

Ever heard of these?  Mount Tumbledown and Wireless Ridge, wasn't it your foreign minister rejecting the claim of sending a SSN off the coast to patrol?  Falklands could have been prevented and the loss of ships that britain sustained were irreplaceable.  If this is wrong in your eyes then you honestly do not know this engagement.  

Loyalist hit it on the spot.  

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[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 04-29-2001).]

[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 04-29-2001).]

[blitz]

Hossa sturm,

was never in the army, hate the situation when some1 gives me orders  
Did civilservice instead & had some fun with this blind guy i worked for  
That's okay for me  

Greets blitz

Btw. If you studied history & read some newspapers y'll know that the very most of all wars were't  fought because of freedom but in the name of it.  

[AG Sachsenberg]

Prost Blitz!

For one thing I am not against those that have not served in the military but those that do not feel bearing arms to defend ones country and ones freedom is right.  These are the individuals I am pointing at, the ones that will let others die so they can remain at peace at home.  

Taking orders is one thing, but doing it to preserve my family I will rightly do.  Waiting for Dowding to come back and publish his simplistic whines I mean views.

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[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 04-29-2001).]

[Dowding]

 

British intelligence found out 4 days prior to the invasion it wasn't until the invasion did they sail a fleet there.

For someone who is supposed to 'study history as a passtime' I'm surprised at this comment. But then again, maybe I'm not.

How long do you think it takes to mobilize a self-sustaining army equipped with the logistics to pursue a campaign in the field for an unknown length of time? Twenty minutes before breakfast?

So they had 4 days notice before the invasion took place? So what? That's practically nothing at all. It took more than four days just to start to get the people together just to plan an operation. Here's a timesline for you:

April 2nd, 1982 Argentinians land on the Falklands and within days they have 10,000 troops stationed there

April 25th The Taskforce is on its way - a journey of 8000 miles.

In the mean time there were all sorts of diplomatic efforts to reach an agreement. The US, the UN and Peru all tried to get the Argentinians to withdraw. There is also the retaking of Georgia island by British forces.

The British taskforce made a landing near Port San Carlos on May 21st.

 

Just to let ya know the Belgrano was not a battleship but a heavy cruiser...

A point based on pedantics - it was a vessel of war and that is the essential truth.

 

I love how you make the Argentinians out to be a ruthless impressive military.

I never said that. But elemets were very well trained and equipped, including Special Forces and mercenaries. They were also entrenched on a hill above open ground, with a large field of fire.

 

...but everything you have written I believe you just went out thru the net and cut and pasted. Your knowledge of this war is from the internet, do you even know why this started?

To your first point - bzzzzz, wrong! Being an historian you should know this, but quotes should be shown as just that - i.e. in quotation marks. For example the excerpt I included describing the Goose Green engagement.

Secondly, I've read several books on the Falklands, including first hand accounts. A good one is 'Excursion to Hell' by Vincent Bramley. He gives his version of the assault on Mount Longdon, and I'd recommend it to you as a good starting point for the building your knowledge on the war.

The internet is also a great tool for looking up information.

As for the origins of the conflict, where do you want to start? The initial disputes over its ownership between the colonial powers or Argentinas historical claim back in the 1800s? Or perhaps you want to start with the UN supported negociations between Britain and Argentina back in the 1960s?

That the Falkland's could have been avoided is a moot point - ALL conflicts can avoided if you go back far enough. As for the loss of shipping - the casualties were quite heavy. But not irreplacable - there has been a massive cut back in the number of merchant vessels available to the RN since 1982.