Author Topic: Please you supur douper pilots help me...  (Read 715 times)

Offline Whirlybird20

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Please you supur douper pilots help me...
« on: June 16, 2001, 01:18:00 PM »
...because I know you guys are like the GODS of flight simmers and RL flying. Please help a wannabe finding what is wrong and incorrect with these message I was sent by by someone who says he is a real pilot, and teaching me to fly and is saying I am an idiot.   :( The message is this:

 
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actually, your "torque", its known as adverse yaw effect to pilots. And while aim at it, let me point out a few other problems with your statement. Oh, and before I do, I may just add that I am currently a pilot and have been flying for over 3 years now. (my ratings are: Commecial Muilt-Engine Instrument with ratings for Complex, high performance, taildraggers, and type ratings for the Citation, Lear Jet, Hawker, Cessna 310, And Seneca.... CFI rating after one more test, if all goes well) Everything from single engine cessnas to multijet Hawkers. Now..back to the subject.

The direction depends on the direction (and speed) the prop is spinning. In american aircraft with fixed pitch, this would cause a pull to the left. in other countries however (and even in some multis) they spin in opposite directions. Its also not the differential in push that causes this, it is also the corkscrew efect. As the wind corkscrews past the vertical stabilizer, it generates more push to one side than the other. This effect also had a great deal to do with the location of the pitot statis system in mechanical aircraft (which is all they had back then).

Also, if you actually flew in RL and not in some sim, you would realize that only an absolute idiot actually holds the rudder out throughout this, as it is much easier to just add rudder trim (which is one point in the game that fails, the rudder trim is extremely touchy and cannot be fine tuned). And in fact, in twin engine jets, it takes two people to go through the entire process to take off (required by law to have full crew). The rudders get you around on the ground, and aid in turning so that the plane does not fall into either a slip or skid. Also, as the standard aircraft pulls to the left, it also SHOULD pull ot the right when decending. Again, do to adverse Yaw acting 90 degrees to the pitch angle.

I also noticed that as the plane approaches a stall, the control surfaces still remain as effective. This is a great flaw, as they would be come less affective close to a stall. First the rudders go, then the elevator, and then the ailerons (they fail last because the inside of the wind actually stalls before the outer edge where they are located).

There is also no penalty for dumping flaps in at full speed, nor is there a penalty for using the variable pitch propeller improperly. Not to mention extending gear or failing to retract. but the one that gets me is how a normally aspirated engine with a float type carb can actually fly upside down. I would think that without fuel, the engine would cease, but not in WWII. Guess they must have secret high tech fuel pumps installed huh?

Oh, and pulling out of a dive going at such a high speed? A real plane would slam into the ground because of a stall. Even though it is pointes forward, its momentum is still carrying it down, so in essense, it has exceeded the critical angle of attack (to the relative wind). Hence, a full stall. But somehow, they can seem to just pull out instantly and not have to vut the throttle and slow their way out of this. (Again with the new high tech aircraft, wow)

Those are just a few of the points. I could go on if you would like. But to be quite honest (and frank) I dont think that someone who flys planes in a sim can tell a pilot how flight mechanics work. You can say what you want about the game, but when it comes to this, you are WAY out of your league.

P.S. Please tell me it is true this game is now 10 dollars? I would humbly like to join you masters if that is the case.

-Whirly

p.s. please, please tell me what is wrong with what he said. I thought only 1 plane pulled on the right in WW2. And what else is he saying wrong and do you think it is true he is a pilot like he says and should be teaching me?

[ 06-16-2001: Message edited by: Whirlybird20 ]

Offline Zippatuh

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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2001, 01:40:00 PM »
I’m not a real pilot.

I’m not a “god” in AH.

Without seeing your side of the correspondence it is quite hard to divine what exactly is going on.  I would say though, if this is an instructor of some sort, and he is calling you an idiot…  I would find another instructor.

Zippatuh

Offline Swoop

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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2001, 01:44:00 PM »
Is he talking about AH or WW2OL?  Cos most of the stuff he mentions *is* modelled in AH.

And no, there's plenty of WW2 aircraft that pull to the right (Typhoon & Yak modelled in AH for example).

 

Offline Whirlybird20

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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2001, 02:01:00 PM »
Ok thanks guys. Too answer your question, it's WW2Online. He was complaining the Spit and the ME109 pulled to the RIGHT. I told him they pull to the LEFT. And he went on saying thing like that the only fact that they do pull is because of corkscrew effect. I read somewhere there where 3 factors. Torque effect, the effect on the tail and the push of the prop as it goes down. Then he wouldn't believe the ME109 emil had fuel infection. This is his last message on the subject.

 
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please get your facts straight before posting. First, i dont really care whether you think I am a pilot or not. What you believe has no bearing on the truth, regardless of what you may think.

But back to flight101.

How many tail draggers are around?? ummm...a lot!! Have you never seen a General aviation ramp?? People LOVE the tail draggers, the two classics being the J-3 Piper cub and the Cessna 140a. Cheap, old, classics.

Dont apply full throttle until nose down?? Check your sources and ask them the procedure for "soft field" and "short field" take offs. Did you even know that the rudder controls are tied directly into the tailwheel or did you assume they only controlled the rudder, and that the tailwheel flopped around like a shopping cart wheel? And you also say that yaw is the effect you get from turning? ummmm..... no. There IS yaw when turning, but it has nothing to do with the turn, its the prop. It occurs because lift and drag are directly proportional. Dont forget that the prop is actually an airfoil. You want proof? Fly a twin engine prop that has counter-rotating props. You will never have to touch the rudders when in the air. (once you sync up the props that is). Unless, of course, you get desperate and for some reason need to use the thrust differential (again, another tactic used in high cross wind landings). And if thats not proof enough, try a jet and then tell me you have "yaw" when turning. Im am truly sorry, but you are in error. But you still havent explained why all three control surface trims are so tuocky, which was the problem. They are not touchy in RL. Matter of fact, in the ND-80 it takes NUMEROUS revolutions of the rudder wheel for even a slight movement.

Lets see, war is just starting, which would lead me to believe this is an early model. yet it still has a migical fuel pump?

Pulling out of a dive at high speeds... two words "dive brakes". So why can the others do it without dive brakes? Iy they didnt use them in RL they would stall. Are you trying to tell me that that is wrong? That it would not result in a high speed stall? You can do it in this game with no brakes. But what about the other problems I address? there were quite a few. did you forget? the loss of control during a stall? the pulling to the right when decending? why doesnt it do that? of the flaps and gear at high speeds? No effect either? or slips and skids? why do they not have those?
But to sum up the forces for you.. "torque" is from the spinning engine and prop, nothing to do with generated wind. "corkscrew" is the wind generated from the prop hitting the side of the stabilizer, and "yaw" is the slip / skidding action (because lift and drag are directly proportional and is determined by the angle of attack). I think I know what you mean by torque, you are actually refering to gyroscopic precession and the p-factor. but you were close!!!  :) (this BTW also causes more friction on one side of the plane, this along with the weathervane tendance can make things ugly)

Oh, and BTW, try hitting the left or right brake while taking off (even tapping them) like they do in this game and watch how fast you end up biting it hard

I find a lot wrong with what he says, don't you guys? He said that the rear wheels are fixed in tail draggers and are also connected to the rudder.

P.S this is not private e-mail. What he posts is on public display.

Offline Citabria

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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2001, 02:09:00 PM »
what a jerk
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Offline eagl

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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2001, 03:29:00 PM »
Whirlybird, not only was his post fairly insulting, he's flat out wrong in many cases.  Here are some examples:

 
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Also, if you actually flew in RL and not in some sim, you would realize that only an absolute idiot actually holds the rudder out throughout this, as it is much easier to just add rudder trim (which is one point in the game that fails, the rudder trim is extremely touchy and cannot be fine tuned).  

Only a frigging idiot allows trim to fly his aircraft through transient aircraft upsets.  Trim is great for eliminating steady-state control forces, but for one-time or short term control force changes, "feeling" the forces and having to manually make control inputs is essential to maintaining aircraft control.  I bet this guy trims when he flares instead of pulling back on the stick, and flies aileron rolls by trimming.

 
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And in fact, in twin engine jets, it takes two people to go through the entire process to take off (required by law to have full crew).  

Maybe in the twin engine jets HE has flown, but sheesh, the 3 years experience he has is just enough time to develop some bad habits and learn enough to think he knows it all.  I have never flown a turbojet twin that requires "by law" 2 people, then again I've only flown 2 engine military jets.  On the gripping hand, I read a few years ago how certain learjets are certified for single pilot operation, so ptooie on his argument.

 
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I also noticed that as the plane approaches a stall, the control surfaces still remain as effective. This is a great flaw, as they would be come less affective close to a stall. First the rudders go, then the elevator, and then the ailerons (they fail last because the inside of the wind actually stalls before the outer edge where they are located).  

This couldn't be farther from the truth, and even the correct application of his logic isn't true for ALL aircraft.  In most planes, you lose ailerons then elevator then rudder and regain effectiveness in the reverse order, but different planes act differently near the stall so there is only a generic application of this "rule" to conventional aircraft.

 
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There is also no penalty for dumping flaps in at full speed, nor is there a penalty for using the variable pitch propeller improperly. Not to mention extending gear or failing to retract. but the one that gets me is how a normally aspirated engine with a float type carb can actually fly upside down. I would think that without fuel, the engine would cease, but not in WWII. Guess they must have secret high tech fuel pumps installed huh?  

I'm guessing he hasn't flown AH or WB, both of which model flap limits (by not allowing them to extend) and correct engine fuel/oil starvation based on the particular aircraft design.  Once again, this dude is applying a whopping 3 years of experience with a handful of similiar civilian designs to high performance fighter aircraft.  Not too credible.

 
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Oh, and pulling out of a dive going at such a high speed? A real plane would slam into the ground because of a stall. Even though it is pointes forward, its momentum is still carrying it down, so in essense, it has exceeded the critical angle of attack (to the relative wind). Hence, a full stall.  

If you don't pull hard enough to stall, you don't stall.  It's calling pulling G's.  Once again, it's a lack of experience and a fundamental ignorance of basic aerodynamics talking.  

I'm sure this guy means well, but his experience and knowledge isn't broad enough for him to go slamming you or pretty much any semi-realistic game on the market.


 
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Those are just a few of the points. I could go on if you would like. But to be quite honest (and frank) I dont think that someone who flys planes in a sim can tell a pilot how flight mechanics work. You can say what you want about the game, but when it comes to this, you are WAY out of your league.  

This arrogance sums it up quite well, but he should be talking about himself.  He doesn't have the knowledge or experience to back up his grand claims.  Feel free to let him know where I feel he's incorrect, and if he blabbers on about how sim pilots don't know jack, you can let him in on my background (1000+ hours in everything from Cessna 150's to the F-15E plus over a year as a USAF primary flight instructor).  I still consider myself a "new guy" in the aviation business so that ought to tell you how his experience stacks up against those who have really done something in aviation.

He seriously needs to get some aero books and do some reading.  He knows just enough to get himself killed.  Imagine thinking there's no way to pull out from a high speed dive...  I pity any passengers he flies with.

He should also get a damn dictionary.  Reading his badly misspelled message was painful to the extreme.
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Offline Citabria

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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2001, 03:51:00 PM »
its like eagl said.

in sims you can master everything the programmer can throw at you.


in the real world of flying you must keep learning every damn time you fly no matter how routine or you are an ignorant jerk like this guy who is whistling dixie right down into disaster.


btw. did you know that in hideously numerous cockpit voice recordings of accidents involving pilot error the pilot was whistling?

they thought they knew it all too.
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline eagl

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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2001, 04:22:00 PM »
RE: whistling...

Sometimes when I'm really concentrating on a difficult task while flying, I'll start humming a song, or I catch myself singing "doobie doobie do" or something equally mindless.  Almost everyone has SOMETHING odd they do when they concentrate that hard, so it's not suprising that some pilots are whistling right about the time the sh*t hits the fan.

I dunno why this is, but in some cases it's a deliberate attempt to reduce tension to aid in decision making and precision flying.
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Offline Whirlybird20

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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2001, 05:19:00 PM »
Tanks alot guys. Especially Eagl  :) You are a fountain of knowledge. I bow to ye God. You guys are everything I ever wanted to be, but couldn't. Ok, I'm starting to sound like a brown noser which I assure you I am not. Just merit to where merit is due. That's what I believe in. Thanks again for you contribution.

Hope I'll be flying with you guys soon.  :)

Offline BlackHammer

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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2001, 12:28:00 AM »
actually, when i was a kid i read all the pilots manuals i could find. he's right on most, if not all, counts.

Offline cav58d

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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2006, 01:56:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
[B  I bet this guy trims when he flares instead of pulling back on the stick, and flies aileron rolls by trimming. [/B]


Hey!!!!!!  I have to use full trim while flaring the mooney to get that fat bastage down to a semi smooth landing!
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2006, 02:06:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Whirlybird20
Ok thanks guys. Too answer your question, it's WW2Online. He was complaining the Spit and the ME109 pulled to the RIGHT. I told him they pull to the LEFT. And he went on saying thing like that the only fact that they do pull is because of corkscrew effect. I read somewhere there where 3 factors. Torque effect, the effect on the tail and the push of the prop as it goes down. Then he wouldn't believe the ME109 emil had fuel infection. This is his last message on the subject.

 

I find a lot wrong with what he says, don't you guys? He said that the rear wheels are fixed in tail draggers and are also connected to the rudder.

P.S this is not private e-mail. What he posts is on public display.


As for the Spitfire.  It pulled to the left or to the right.  It depends on whether it was a Merlin Spit or a Griffon Spit.

One of the things that happened to guys transitioning to the Spit XII (First Griffon Spit) who didn't read the pilots notes, was they cranked in trim the same as they would for the Merlin Spit.  They ended up taking off going sideways or nearly hitting hangers as the Griffon rotated the opposite direction and they needed to crank in trim the other direction.
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Offline zorstorer

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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2006, 02:26:05 PM »
Damn Cav you using the old retired thread shovel again? ;)

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2006, 02:41:16 PM »
<> eagl, on two counts.   The first for serving, and the second for taking that time to help him.  I even learned a thing or two from that.   Excellent post.
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2006, 03:38:36 PM »
Funny how some legend are hold still true like :
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but the one that gets me is how a normally aspirated engine with a float type carb can actually fly upside down.


Sorry mister knowall ... float carb can be flown upside down it a question of design not of technology used.