Author Topic: "its just a game" teaching kids to lose....  (Read 1606 times)

TheWobble

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« on: January 28, 2001, 09:32:00 AM »
I was watching TV and I flipped past Nickelodeon(sp) and watched a 10 minute cartoon who's "lesson" is that "its ok to lose"   the kids are playing soccer and they are losing bad and this one kid is upset and really wants to win and they make this big deal about "its not weather you win or lose but weather you have fun" at the end they lose horribly but its ok because the coach has bought everyone ice cream, the toon fades out with them all smiling chanting "we're # 2!!, We're # 2!!"

I think this sends a message to kids that failure in competition and thus life is not a big deal and that not achieving goals is acceptable.  
I wasn't taught but am naturally very competitive, I get upset when I lose and try very hard to accel at everything I do. I feel that WINNING IS FUN.


So basically there are 2 stances..

"its not weather you win or lose, but weather you have fun"
VS

"winning is fun"


personally im getting tired of this feel good crap they try to spoon feed kids, god forbid a kid be upset with himself when he screws up. "its ok to fail at stuff, its acceptable, we still love you"
I think that's a dangerous way to motivate children..or lack there of.

Where do You stand???

Offline RAM

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2001, 09:39:00 AM »
for me a good loser is a LOSER.

One thing is to carry on with the bad feelings, and to congratule the winner.

other thing is to say "I dont mind losing".

Whe who doesnt mind losing or winning, most times will end *-always-* losing.

TheWobble

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2001, 09:49:00 AM »
when I lose the only grudge I hold is against MYSELF, and it goes away when I win again, good way to self motivate IMO.

Offline Jimdandy

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2001, 09:59:00 AM »
Well lets put it this way. Life isn't perfect for anyone and toejam happens. What I hope they are trying to get across is that you can't let a loss stop you. Learn from your mistake and try again. If you give up at the first loss you have you'll never be good at anything. It is ok to lose. It means you participated but the other guy was better and a lot of times just flat luckier. I hope what there trying to get across is that you will run into set backs in life and how you decide to handle them can be a major factor in what happens afterward. Do you just give up and never try again or take it in stride and move on. Most of the time games end with a winner and a loser. Even the greatest lose at times. They learn form it and go on if they are truly great. The old saying goes that if your not making mistakes your not doing anything.  

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-28-2001).]

Offline Jimdandy

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2001, 10:07:00 AM »
Ooops

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-28-2001).]

TheWobble

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2001, 10:08:00 AM »
I see yer point jim, but this toon wasnt saying "sometimes the best lose dont take it too hard"

it was saying (to me) "its ok to lose, dont expect to win and your feelings wont get hurt when ya lose"
like I said "feelgood crap"

VERY VERY good assesment though <S>

EDIT: "oops"  quit "oops" ing on my thread you multi-submitting twitchy bastid!   <S>

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-28-2001).]

Offline Jimdandy

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2001, 10:12:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by TheWobble:
I see yer point jim, but this toon wasnt saying "sometimes the best lose dont take it too hard"

it was saying (to me) "its ok to lose, dont expect to win and your feelings wont get hurt when ya lose"
like I said "feelgood crap"

VERY VERY good assesment though <S>

EDIT: "oops"  quit "oops" ing on my thread you multi-submitting twitchy bastid!     <S>

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 01-28-2001).]

Yes I've seen it too. I'm not exactly sure what there trying to do with that kind of show. It's what I call Barnyfied crap. It's funny though. I am a pessimist generally. I go into a situation ready to lose but doing my damnedest to win. I usually do just fine but I always know that no matter how good I am there is always someone better. I try to never underestimate my opponent. I think thats another reason to teach kids loss. Never underestimate your opponent.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-28-2001).]

Offline Kieren

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2001, 10:55:00 AM »
Let me preface these comments by saying that I have spent 25 years in coaching athletes of all ages in a variety of sports. I myself am/was a competitive athlete.

Winning and losing are intertwined, you cannot have one without the other. That is a fact of life. Sports, as a metaphor for life, reflect this fact. If you play long enough, you lose in either one.

No one ever said you need to enjoy defeat; the important thing is that you learn something from it. A mistake unexamined is a lesson unlearned. You will, as the adage says "repeat history".

You actually have tapped into something here, though I doubt it is what you intended. Why do you think there is so much whining on open channel? Easy- there are many on who have not learned that you will lose a fight once in a while, no matter how good you are. Tough as it is, it is far better to salute the guy, try to figure out how he bested you, and apply that knowledge towards the next fight. You show class that way. Some fellows here seem to take loss so hard they have to diminish the efforts of the guy that bested them in order to keep self-esteem. Some of the best pilots of the game are the worst in this respect. That is a line I never want to cross, and if being the "best" means I have to go that far, well, I will never be the best then.

In my current coaching, I expect the athletes (cross-country) to tell me how they thought their races went. I don't accept what you typically hear when things go wrong ("It was crap!"), I want to hear what went wrong AND what went right. This gives a point of reference to begin planning for the next event and keeps things on a positive spin.

Now, take your Nickelodean commercial- those athletes weren't seeking to lose at the outset, right? They did find themselves in a situation where losing was pretty much inevitable. What should they do, rush the opposing bench for a brawl? Start hurling slurs? Or do they play the game out and hold their heads up when they leave? Frankly, I have been in that situation, and I think you only got to see the snapshot of the moment. As was said before, I would be interested in how the next day at practice went before I passed judgement on the message. Taking a bunch of 10-year-olds out and telling them they are dirt for losing sounds like a self-destructive tactic. Anyone can scream at a losing team; great coaches can find something positive in any situation.

One more thought for you concerning that commercial- you can have tons of knowledge, and you can even be the best at what you do and still fail as a teacher/coach. If you cannot formulate a message in a manner that your audience will accept it, you will fail. I speak from 15 years as a teacher when I say that screaming doesn't work if done regularly- any parent will tell you the same. Kids tune you out, as will adults. Far better to approach with a message the kids will buy into, then bring them around, show them you are right. In the end you must win their respect, then you have their ears.  

TheWobble

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2001, 11:19:00 AM »
Kieren, I very much agree with all you said, but this cartoon went a bit too far as do alot of teaching these feel good days, it more or less taught to expect to lose, that way you wont be dissappointed when you do.

Oh yea in the cartoon the team needed to make one point to win at the last second (how classic) and when the kid missed (kicked it over) he just shrugged and smiled without missing a beat everyone ran over to  the smiling coach to get icecreame like noone cared, they lost, and they didnt care.  there is a difference between accepting defeat as an occasional part of life, and expecting to lose and take that as the norm (the show seem to strongly emphasize the latter)

It just bugged me that they think kids should be taught to not care if they lose, and to not be upset (thus not learning lesson) when they fail at something.

Offline Kieren

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2001, 11:31:00 AM »
I can't argue with that, Wobble. I have seen what you are describing as well, noncompetitive sports. While it has merits, it just doesn't completely fulfill instincts many of us have. We want a winner and a loser.  

Offline Tac

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2001, 01:33:00 PM »
"It doesnt matter whether you win or lose... but always CHEAT!"    

I like to win just like everyone else, but I find that losing is much more educational.

Offline StSanta

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2001, 02:04:00 PM »
Kieren the voice of reason

Now if I only could get you way from the awful religious thingy, we could go on a crusade. I'd let you be Emperor of All Material Things Except Those Owned By Santa. Think about it.

Regarding winning and losing; not everything in life is a do or die matter. If one is raised to be overly competitive, one will find social interactions somewhat difficult.

Being number one is being the best. Being number two is being damned good. Celebrate an achievement and what is learned from it; sometimes, the goal is less worth than the journey. It's something that must be remembered.

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Offline RAM

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2001, 02:05:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:

I like to win just like everyone else, but I find that losing is much more educational.

It should be. But if instead of thinking that the next time the one who has just beaten you will pay that with blood ( ), you think "its all right, I lose but I dont mind", then you only are learning HOW to be a loser.

One thing is to be a bad loser, other is to be a good loser. Neither is good, but IMO the good loser will end being a REAL loser, at least the other tries to not to lose again.

Offline Kieren

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2001, 02:52:00 PM »
Ram-

From the bottom of my heart, and with sincerest respect, I just don't think I can disagree with you more.

You will lose if you play long enough. You will win if you play long enough. There is nothing wrong with learning to do both well. I repeat, I don't think anyone has to like losing, but you do have to accept its inevitability. Did you play well, to the best of your ability? Did you learn from what went wrong? Can you improve yourself as a result of your loss?

The whole "if you learn to lose well you just learn to lose" line is a bit one-dimensional, don't you think? Then again, maybe we all should yell and scream at those that best us (albeit temporarily) and refuse to give them credit for a well-fought contest- you know, the whole sportsman thing. I hope not. I have many rivals in sports that I respect, even train with, and I think they bring the best out in me whether I beat them or not. I am the first one to shake their hands if they beat me, and the reverse is true as well. We swap versions of the story over a beer. We train hard for the next meeting, calculating the weakness and strengths of one another. We adjust our strategies. The process repeats over and over. What a shame if I couldn't accept that I lost to such a person, and have to go into my room, lock the door, grab a bottle of Jack Daniels and listen to Nirvana. That would be enough to kill anyone.  

Offline RAM

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"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2001, 04:10:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Kieren:
Ram-

From the bottom of my heart, and with sincerest respect, I just don't think I can disagree with you more.

You will lose if you play long enough. You will win if you play long enough. There is nothing wrong with learning to do both well. I repeat, I don't think anyone has to like losing, but you do have to accept its inevitability. Did you play well, to the best of your ability? Did you learn from what went wrong? Can you improve yourself as a result of your loss?

The whole "if you learn to lose well you just learn to lose" line is a bit one-dimensional, don't you think? Then again, maybe we all should yell and scream at those that best us (albeit temporarily) and refuse to give them credit for a well-fought contest- you know, the whole sportsman thing. I hope not. I have many rivals in sports that I respect, even train with, and I think they bring the best out in me whether I beat them or not. I am the first one to shake their hands if they beat me, and the reverse is true as well. We swap versions of the story over a beer. We train hard for the next meeting, calculating the weakness and strengths of one another. We adjust our strategies. The process repeats over and over. What a shame if I couldn't accept that I lost to such a person, and have to go into my room, lock the door, grab a bottle of Jack Daniels and listen to Nirvana. That would be enough to kill anyone.  

Uhmmm..lets see.

I dont say that you must yell at the one who has just won, in fact the whole <S> concept in the main arena is to salute a good fight, good ACM, etc. I have nothing against congratulating the guy who has just won. In fact the opposite.

What I mean is that the whole concept of "being a good loser" is that if you do a nice combat, and still are killed, then you are going to be happy. Well, I will feel great of the fight I have just had, but not about the fact that I have just lost.

For instance, this afternoon, I was flying with stsanta joined in my cockpit. At one moment, I was surrounded with no less than 5 bandits and I kept the flying for a couple of minutes evading countless bounces. But I was killed. 5-1 odds. I was proud I lasted so long. But I was pissed, because I died. Santa said "nice flying" and I asnwered "don't think so, I died".

The whole thing is that I LEARN from losing. But that doesnt mean that I must accept losing as a normal learning way  . If I had said "yeah, I have done a good job against 5 bandits", then I would be a conformist. I am still thinking in that death and thinking how did I blew it at the moment I was hit, and thinking that I should have jinked to the other side, or kept SA better, or...

If I simply say "I have done it OK" then I am going to learn less, IMO. Conformism is never good. "Good losers" have a lot of conformism (no disrespect here, of course), and I simply dont like that  .