"its just a game" teaching kids to lose....

[funked]

RAM the point is that one should show some respect for the people against which one is competing, win or lose, because if one doesn't, those people will not be interested in any further competition, forcing one to come up with a series of fake names to play under which will only last as long as one can restrain oneself from idiotic outbursts in the arena which, as we have seen, is not very long at all.

[Jimdandy]

   

Originally posted by Kieren:
Ram-

...You will lose if you play long enough. You will win if you play long enough. There is nothing wrong with learning to do both well. I repeat, I don't think anyone has to like losing, but you do have to accept its inevitability. Did you play well, to the best of your ability? Did you learn from what went wrong? Can you improve yourself as a result of your loss?...

That's the facts. I think the very most important thing a loss teaches is not to over estimate your self or underestimate the other guy. Think. Do your best. Observe. Learn. Analyze what happened. Than go on to the next challenge. You realize you lost the last one but you learned some things you can use in the next one. But you also know you can lose and that makes you think a little more. It also teaches you to respect the ability of others and the advise of others. This will sound terribly corny but here goes. I've thought of all the games I've played solitaire gives a very good analogy to life. You can play it over and over and no matter how good you get at it you lose most of the time. The key to winning is paying very close attention to the cards in play. But even if you don't miss any plays the deck is mostly stacked against you. But if you never play you will never win. The chances for most people becoming a Bill Gates are VERY small. But if you don't get out there and try you certainly never will. Not that money is the only mark of success. It is just an analogy.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-28-2001).]

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

Unfortunetly this kind of programming is rampant in America today, especially aimed at young children. There seems to be an effort to "sissyfy" US kids because the whole ed-school crowd has taken the view that individual initiative and drive to succed/win is best replaced with some sort of collectivistic ethic. The most practical effect of this in schooling has been a move toward "group work" yeaaaa! and less relevant course material. I have personal experience with High School English classes using group POTTERY??? making to teach grammar. Plus intelligent kids are often discouraged from fully using their skills, lest they make the other kids feel "bad". I guess they all want the kids to be dumb, unmotivitaed, loosers - at lest they will be in touch with their emotions. Very very sad, I had the misfortune to be part of the US ed system as this change was taking place.

[TheWobble]

I agree lots of folks take AH too seriously, I dont even fly the MA and i can still see some VERY heated rivalry now and then leaking onto the boards.  I see both sides at this point from both Ram and Kieren, and both are right, i just feel that lots of the influences on childern (kids shows mainly) have strayed from accepteing losing as part of life turned it into accepting losing as a way of life (hence the post) very interesting thought on both sides here but I wouls say you are BOTH right.  I feel competition is good for everyone, it forces people to set goals and try harder, these stuped shows emphasize to kids (IMO) that if you lose dont worry about it, dont think about it, and dont try to do any better, and to just accept themselves as someone who isnt going to win..so to not even try.  Thats what bothers me.

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by funked:
RAM the point is that one should show some respect for the people against which one is competing, win or lose, because if one doesn't, those people will not be interested in any further competition, forcing one to come up with a series of fake names to play under which will only last as long as one can restrain oneself from idiotic outbursts in the arena which, as we have seen, is not very long at all.

Funked...you have no friggin idea on what you are talking about, so...better shaddap.

BTW I have kept the same account I opened without changing it, so the "series" of identities you talk about, are nonsense. Till the date ,I have jumped in anger in #1 only once and didnt last for more than 10 seconds  

But of course you think different. Thats good, means I'm doing it well.  

[funked]

For the third time, you are denying something nobody has accused you of...

[AKSeaWulfe]

It's because everyone of today's kids watches barney or those damned queer teletubbies or that pokeman crap. You're bound right from the start to be a LOSER if you watch that nonsense.

I grew up on GI Joe and war movies. Like Blue Max, or Flying Tigers, or 12Oclock high, etc etc.

Losing is never acceptable unless you ARE losing. I want to WIN, there is no second best there is only THE BEST.

If you come in second that means you are the second best compared to someone else, you want to be second in line to someone else?

I sure don't. No get out of my way I'm comin' through!
<BFG>
-SW

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by funked:
For the third time, you are denying something nobody has accused you of...

Really?

forcing one to come up with a series of fake names to play under which will only last as long as one can restrain oneself from idiotic outbursts in the arena which, as we have seen, is not very long at all.

 

as you have seen...you haven't seen anything. Wich is good for me, BTW  

[Kieren]

Ram-

If I am reading Herr Funked properly, I believe he is referring to a few high-profile pilots who have come and gone and come and gone and come and gone... I don't think he singled you out.  

[Kieren]

I know a runner that would never go to state or national level competition- not that he wasn't talented enough, it was that he couldn't bear the thought he might actually lose a contest. For that reason he limited himself to being only a local and regional standout.

Jumping in with people that are far more talented/experienced than yourself can be one of the most educational tools a person can have- that is unless your ego won't allow the certain thumping you will receive.  

[StSanta]

You know, back when I pplayed tennis, think I was 13 or 14, I met Magnus Norman. he's now a top seeded tennis player.

I lost, 6-2 6-3.

It was the most fun I had had on a tennis court; played very well and we had long duels. He was just better than me.

Winning ain't everything. Life isn't about winning; Life is about experiencing and learning. It is about what you can get out of an experience. With a few exceptions such as life and death situations.

No matter how much you win or lose, you'll be stuck with yourself. I'd rather be a happy "loser" than a crying "winner". The concepts are rather artificial, I think.

If you can get something good out of a trip, you've won. Period. If you can't, try again.

I feel *everything* we do in life is a potential win - we had nothing before we lived and now, everything we have is sort of a blessing. With a few caveats, naturally.

That doesn't mean I am not competitive and hate to lose - I'm a sore loser. But once my testosterone and ego starts mellow down, I can reflect on my experience.

RAM, you said it wasn't nice flying because you died. If you had, buy pure luck, gotten out alive, would this make your flying great? Even though it was luck, not skill, that got ya out of it?

You can fly well and die. You can fly poorly and live and kill. I'd agre fthat for people that fly to live, losing will always be a sore thing.

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
 
"I don't necessarily agree with everything I think." - A. Eldritch

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 01-29-2001).]

[Kieren]

Santa-

I notice a certain acceptance of imperfection that I find refreshing- perhaps I can persuade you to come over to my "Higher Calling" way of thinking and I could allow you to be in charge of spreading the word?  

Seriously, great and illustrative example!

[Mighty1]

Kieren you failed to mention that the guy (John) was a low life dick with ears that was so wrapped up in image he couldn't bare to lose at anything so he lied or cheated everyone he met just so he would look good.

I think he was a Democrat too.

I think learning to lose well is very important. I also think learning to win well is just as important.

Good sportsmanship is a virtue that is fading away in todays kids mainly because of parents attitude on winning.

I've coached for quite a few years myself and normally the kids that are bad sports have parents that are bad sports. (Does the David M. and the Scott C. families come to mind Kieren?)

[blur]

Win/Lose, Light/Dark, Good/Bad

Any distinction you make always creates its opposite.

Interesting opinions here, but as usual I find my self disagreeing with almost all of them.   I think competitiveness is destructive and is at the core of what is wrong in our society. Taking a young child and teaching him to compete and then deriving his self-image from the result is harmful.

What ever happened to just running for joy?

Okay, I get it, if there are no stopwatches, special gear, Wheaties contracts and others to compare oneself to, it's just not the same thing.  

I usually try to refrain from posting too many quotes from others but the following one sums up perfectly my feelings on this subject.

"One is everlastingly comparing oneself with another, with what one is, with what one should be, with someone who is more fortunate. This comparison really kills. Comparison is degrading, it perverts one's outlook. And on comparison one is brought up. All our education is based on it and so is our culture. So there is everlasting struggle to be something other than what one is. The understanding of what one is uncovers creativeness, but comparison breeds competitiveness, ruthlessness, ambition, which we think brings about progress. Progress has only led so far to more ruthless wars and misery than the world has ever known. To bring up children without comparison is true education."

         - J. Krishnamurti

[Kieren]

Competition is a cruel reality in our world.

How you handle competition makes all the difference. You can compete with others or yourself, but in the end if you decide you want to improve yourself in anything you absolutely must compare (and by virtue compete) with some standard.

BTW, reminds me of college vs. real world viewpoints. In college you learn all the wonderful ideological examples of how to do your job, how great society can be, and how to deal with people effectively and respectfully.

Then you wake up in the real world. You learn very quickly about the nature of people, your workplace, and your job. You realize you need to be far more pragmatic.

Yes, there is competition in virtually anything you wish to mention, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing- unless we make it bad.