Church and state separation, part Deux

[Toad]

Well, Nash, with all the folks that are worried about this, don't you think the wise old Liberal defenders of the Constitution (jeez, sometimes I crack myself up!) would include an office people could go to to complain? Or a 1-800 number?

I think what I really realize is that folks that NEED help are just glad to get it...no matter who brings it. That's been my experience.

Everybody that wandered into that Catholic soup kitchen I volunteered at just sat down and ate. Never had one ask "Do I have to pray to get fed?" (No, they didn't have to.)

But no... screw those folks. Let's be more concerned with the delivery vehicle rather than helping people.  

...and nobody is too interested in asking the needy folks that are the point of this exercise what they think, are they?

Afraid of the answer, you think?

Heh... Democrats/liberals basically put in a position whereby they are passionately opposing a Federally funded social program - repleat with a Congressionally placed oversight commitee and the whole nine yards. That's gotta smart.

 

[-towd_]

its not a federaly funded social program its a payback in cash to a suport group . a lie dressed up in pretty cloths that defies the constitution . why do you bend words so ? the damb churches create nothing but problems in my experience and want nothing but power in my opinion and alot of the funding fathers. if you like um great give you money to um not mine.

[Nash]

So by calling this 1-800 number, a representitive will rush down to hear the homeless man essentially calling a priest either a law breaker or a liar?

Toad, I think yer missing the point. These people already *do* receive assistance. Soup kitchens already *exist*. What Bush is proposing is, like I said, funneling tax dollars now to churches to perform this function. Where is this money likely to come from? Surely not yer vaunted $300 dollar a year (YES I'm in FAT CITY NOW!) tax break. Also gotta keep a few bucks for Star Wars part II... No sir... it will come from the existing programs.

No matter how ya slice it, it's basically funding what amounts to a private interst group nowadays.

"Thanks fer the votes, here's some cash, see ya in 4! (with possibly many more 'enlightened' voters next time around, *wink wink*"

[Kieren]

We're going to ensure that everyone has health care (provided by the government), free lunches in school, and after school daycare mandated by the government.

See you in four.

But wait, we know the other side only does these things out of the goodness of their hearts, not because it builds a larger welfare state and therefore more voters. Nah, no way.

[Toad]

Perhaps. Can't deny that possibility.

So your point then is that the other Party NEVER did anything like this?  

Big Deal. It's going nowhere in Congress.

Toad is hoppin' on out of this circular argument. Enjoy.

Maybe now you guys could start a thread on how bad Bush's new "Prescriptions For Seniors" Program is.

 

[Kieren]

 

You're....serious? You do realize that in most instances, homeless people are in the position they are in not merely because someone walked up one day and stole their house.... right?

I don't think anyone suggested that was the case. I do wonder what you think the reason is, in most cases. I also wonder why that is germaine to the point.

If faith-based organizations do it better (charity) than government agencies you have to consider the possiblity it cuts down on waste. That means more people helped. That is good, right?

Towd, the dogma stuff is classic. Where did you go to church? Not being sarcastic, just curious about where that viewpoint developed.

[Nash]

Kieren, the homeless bit stemmed from the fact that Toad and Funked et al suggested that if these churches encroached on the seperation of church and state stipulation,  then this homeless person could launch some kind of action by dialling a 1-800 number to have some Congressionally appointed oversight comitee representetive to step in and remove the the church's funds.

I'm suggesting that this person probably doesn't have the will,  energy or resources to do anything remotely like this. In fact, he'd probably sit through an hour of "Jesus Saves" being screached to him over a bullhorn if it meant he could just get his damn soup.

But lets assume he gets fed up with this, and calls this Congressionally appointed oversite committee representative. He's now lookin' at playing he said she said with a Priest. Long odds there, no?

This is just an absolutely rediculous proposition. And that's exactly why it will never get off the ground.

I gotta wonder if Bush didn't already realize this, yet went ahead with it just so he could say to the religious right "Look, I tried".  

Abortion, religion and Ashcroft. If Bush continues bending over to the right to such an extreme, he's gonna be out of a job. And all this from a "uniter". That's got the same catchy ring to it as "faith-based" and "compassionate conservative", actually.

Hardly suprising though. I can't wait to see what the NEXT seven days are gonna be like from this gifted leader of the free world.

[Nash]

"So your point then is that the other Party NEVER did anything like this?" - Toad

Heh, this thing really *has* come full circle, hasn't it? I remember making much the same claim when Clinton was being attacked. Though I'm finding it so much easier being on this side now, actually. Perhaps that's why the Republicans seemed to relish in it for the last 8 years.

Of course, guys like Limbaugh will always find things to gripe at... but hearing guys like you with common sense defending the nonsensical will be midly entertaining, to say the least. (If I told you back in September that you would be defending a new 10 billion dollar federal social program, what would you have said?).

Enjoy yer new defensive roles, gents. Bush will keep you very busy, indeed  

[Kieren]

I don't want to be offensive, but I am curious about something here. I see that we are yet again polarized, yet I am beginning to wonder specifically the reason.

Santa is at fault, really. We had this nice long discussion on religion, which I thought was great. The issue pops up here again, and I am wondering if it really is the issue.

For those against faith-based charity; are you religious? (Santa need not answer.  ) Is this the main gripe with the idea?

Are you constitutionalists? Is it that you see a vital part of the constitution being destroyed?

Are you anti-Bush at all costs? Would it matter if he had the cure for cancer, you wouldn't take it if it came from him?

Me?

Religious.

I see a conflict of interest.

I wish McCain had run, but I felt Bush was the best 2nd choice.

In other words, I am trying to avoid the temple-pounding this time around. Most everyone has made sensible points, just wonder if we are listening to each other.

[Fatty]

Not religious.

Constitution being destroyed is a little strong, but I am worried it is blurring the seperation of church and state.  I am equally opposed to this on the grounds that grandiose government programs rarely if ever work and always cost more than originally thought.

I voted for Bush, though McCain in the primaries (see above.  My reasons for being republican have nothing to do with the moral majority, but are more along the lines of fiscal responsibility).  At this point I would still vote for him again, but these kinds of platforms are the things I vote against religously (no pun) in primaries.

I don't think it'll pass, so I'm not particularly worried, but I have this disturbing vision of a gigantic agency dedicated to the study, evalutation, and certification of approved faith institutions.

[Naso]

 

Originally posted by Eagler:
You and yours too, Nasco.

Look past the organization, way or path. There is but one "God", he just has many different names, faces and messengers depending on circumstance and location. My Catholic God is the same as the Buddhist "Enlightened One" is the same as Allah is the same as .... In the end, there is but One and we are all of it.
(whether you realize this or not, does not change it)

Eagler

I like this concept, well said.

BTW, actually I have no God, maybe in the future I will take Nifur, dunno, but StSanta still have to convert me.  

[Naso]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
Naso,

Be afraid...Be VERY afraid!

<CUT>

THE US GOVERNMENT actually PAYS these Chaplains a salary!

Noooooooooooooo!  Nooooooooooooooooooooo!

It's TOO LATE!

We're DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMM MMED!

This RELIGION business HAS ALREADY TAKEN OVER THE HOUSE AND SENATE!

Santa! I think they have said "JESUS" in the House and Senate! HELP! Send NIFUR!!!!

   

You guys crack me up!
 


[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 01-30-2001).]

Man, I live in a country where there are catholic schools (with goverment money), catholic hospitals (with government money), and a huge mass of catholic churchs (Idem).

For me is already worse.

And the church have a big control of the votes, like mafia  

But you are right, you have nothing to learn from other cultures, yeah?

No exchange, only bashing here, uh?

[StSanta]

Kieren, I respect your views and you put them eloquently.

But, I am an ardent supporter of separation of church and state. Perhaps I come across as very confrontational; on this issue I am.

I will not budge.

State and religion should *never* be mixed.

Personal faith I can respect. Government sponsored religion I cannot. It's ugly, disrupting, damaging and overall bad. Even evil.

And that's the issue; the separation. it's not about a war on Christianity; I wage that on my own time by myself through Evil Atheist Conspiracy and Knights Of BAAWAA /Bad Assed Atheists With An Attitude, internal alt.atheism joke  ).

That war is for fun, and both sides take and give punches, 90% in jest, which is fun.

[sky_bax]

 http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010131faith2.asp

I thought this article today from my hometown newspaper fit in this thread.

BTW, if your a hockey fan, it is the home newspaper for #66 & Co.  

------------------
Skybax
328th Fighter Squadron
 www.352ndFighterGroup.com
Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney


[This message has been edited by sky_bax (edited 01-31-2001).]

[Eagler]

great article sky, wonder why the media hasn't picked up on it... oh yea, it doesn't fit their anti-god agenda.

Separation of church and state has nothing to do with this, StSanta. There is no way that this could lead to a "national" religion, which is what our fore fathers feared. It's just good people doing good, passing on love and compassion.

"Go towards the light..."

Eagler