Request: ammo transfer for bombers

[Citabria]

buff crews were able to transfer ammo can we have that option too? no more ammo loaded just ability to transfer it to the current gunner position?

say make it take a few minutes and you cant fire your guns for during the transfer?

[Krusty]

Well yes and no... Maybe some were able to, but it wasn't fast, it wasn't easy. Most in the B17 and B24 (the 2 most common bombers in this game now) were in large storage bins/lockers/whatever that were simply not easy to open, pull out ammo, and lug hundreds of pounds of bullets to another gun, open its locker and then link that ammo with another. And what if that ammo locker is full?

Ammo exchange was something done during lulls in the fight. Between point A and point B. In AH I can just see this being abused SO badly..... Fire a burst from tail, reload instantly. Fire a burst from tail, reload instantly, repeat 10,000 times and never move from the tail gun position.

I'm not for this idea at all. In fact, one might say I'm against it.

[fuzeman]

We have a delay when you are rearming on hotpads and this delay could be upped to a minute or three in bombers to replicate the time it took to shift the ammo around.

The peanut gallery is interested.

[Lazerr]

You can't really reload a formation of buffs, and takeoff with all three again.

Or am I wrong?

[Scatcat]

i like the idea

[culero]

Good point, Krusty. Maybe go for Fester's idea but make the time delay have to occur while out of icon range of enema?

culero

[Morpheus]

Krusty is wrong. The 50 cal boxes where heavy, but not so heavy they couldnt be moved around...easily no less.  With the flip of one latch, the box was open, the ammo belt was pulled out and being loaded very fast. It was not "hundreds of pounds" per box either.

IIRC the belts where already hanging out of the boxes, which had handles on them so they could be moved around easily and loaded.

[Morpheus]

Yeah, that looks very hard to lug around Krusty. You'd have to be a whole 90 lbs to pick this up full of ammo.

[Krusty]

That's not the type you find on a B17. You might find that on an M2 on a jeep or something.

The ones I've seen photos of in B17s are the size of a large PC tower case, mounted to the wall, with a flip-top lid. The way you get ammo in and out is to remove the lid and lay the ammo chains in (like feeding them into a P51 wing, think of it that way).

EDIT:

Not to mention that in ww2 bombers the ammo chains are fed through long feeding tubes to the guns themselves. If you were entirely out (or at least there wasn't any left in the box, it was all in the feed tube) you could not attach more rounds to the end of the chain.

[Krusty]

Example:



Example:

[Bodhi]

The type of box Morph showed was on early B-17's and in 25's and that ilk.  They were replaced with large phenolic containers later on.  The pics shown by Krusty are very interesting in that they show wooden type containers, which I have seen, but were not the standard factory locations for the ammo.  Specifically the RH and LH waist guns both had ammo positions to their aft of the window located at eye level.

As for moving ammo around in flight.  It was done, although I am sure the biggest pain was linking the belts together (or did they wait until they were empty?)  As for linking it together to another belt.... I doubt they'd do it as the feed chutes are a pain in the arse as is the concept of emptying a belt outta the gun's can, and connecting it to another then having to try and put it all back in while tooling along in a bouncing bomber.

Who knows.  I am in favor, but their needs to be a delay, and the out of icon range thing sounds good, OR just make it so ALL the buffs guns can not fire until the reload is complete.

[APDrone]

Originally posted by Krusty
..... Fire a burst from tail, reload instantly. Fire a burst from tail, reload instantly, repeat 10,000 times and never move from the tail gun position.

....

Well, I sense a smidge of exaggeration here, as I would think you would designate what gunner position to transfer the ammo from.. say,  Right Waist, Nose, Upper.. ect.. which would limit the transfers to being from up to 5 other gunner positions..

Even then... if you're worried about the guy being able to sit in the tail and hammer incoming time after time after time..  I have visualizations of a scene from, I think, Mom and Dad Save the World where the idiot soldiers were 'attacked' by a grenade that said 'Don't pick me up'.. at which one of the soldiers would pick it up.. it would kill them.. then the next guy would pick it up.. and it would kill them... etc...

Or was it Spaceballs?

Either case.. if the enemy keeps coming in on 6, they deserve to die.  Especially if they're dodging debris from their countrymen..

A delay would be appropriate.  A minute or so.. Would be real nice if there were documented examples of how long it really took.  I'm sure the ammo containers were relatively portable, as there are several documented events of crews dumping all guns and ammo overboard to reduce weight..

Now, if a gunner position is disabled, does that include the ammo? Or would that have to be modelled on the damage report?

[hacksaw1]

Wishlist

http://www.thehewitt.net/sam.html

Sam Hewitt 15th Air Force WWII POW

"By now, because of the loss of so many ships (B-17s) that were behind us, we found ourselves to be in the unenviable position of "tail end Charlie"! The battle was now approaching two hours, which for an air battle was rare. Our tail gunner had run out of ammunition and came up to where I was (top turret) to get some of what I had left."

http://www.southernoregonwarbirds.org/b24a.html

George R. Insley
Brief Bio:
George R. Insley �major theater of wartime operations was in Europe (ETO), from September 1943 to July 1945, with the 66th and 506th Squadrons, 44th Bomb Group, 2nd Air Division, 8th Air Force, based in Shipdon, England. He flew a total of 48 combat missions and was awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross with one star and 8 Air Medals.

"There we were, two groups, one a B-17 group and one a B-24. When the fighters showed up the B-24 leader slid our formation in under the B-17 group, for more protection as well as for more defense against the fighters. So where did they attack? Yes right in my corner, low left and last. You can see why they called it Purple Heart Corner. My tail gunner, George Federlin shot up all of his ammo and the waist gunner took more ammo to him."


Best Regards,

Cement

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Bodhi
Who knows.  I am in favor, but their needs to be a delay, and the out of icon range thing sounds good, OR just make it so ALL the buffs guns can not fire until the reload is complete.

A delay is fair enough for the ammo to show up as being there.

BUT -
Why out of icon range?
I'm sure they didn't wait for the con to disengage before doing it during WW2.

All guns can't fire? -
Only the guns the ammo was being transferred from shouldn't be able to fire, the rest should be able to carry on.
A short pause on the gun that the ammos being transferred to should happen to simulate the reload.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Krusty
That's not the type you find on a B17. You might find that on an M2 on a jeep or something.

The ones I've seen photos of in B17s are the size of a large PC tower case, mounted to the wall, with a flip-top lid. The way you get ammo in and out is to remove the lid and lay the ammo chains in (like feeding them into a P51 wing, think of it that way).

EDIT:

Not to mention that in ww2 bombers the ammo chains are fed through long feeding tubes to the guns themselves. If you were entirely out (or at least there wasn't any left in the box, it was all in the feed tube) you could not attach more rounds to the end of the chain.

WWII AAF B-17 B-24 M2 .50 Ammunition Box
These are .50 caliber machine gun ammo boxes used early in the war on B-17, B-24 and several other aircraft. These are brand new and in the original shipping box. The boxes are worn (see image) but the ammo boxes are in good condition however. They are Type O-1 Specification No. 93-24673, Assembly Dwg. No. 35 D 3891, Order No. 43-18410-P, THE BRUNHOFF MFG. CO. Boxes holds appx. 40 rounds. $20.00



B-17 Sperry Turret M2 Machine Gun Ammo Box
 Left hand ammo box for  upper B-17 Sperry turret. It is made of galvanized metal and was spot welded together. It has the rollers intact though one is showing signs of corrosion. One end is stenciled in red POINTS (shows arrow on direction of loading) USE M2 LINKS. The side is also stenciled in red and reads LOAD AMMUNITION THUS FOR L.H. GUN (has arrows showing direction for loading). $85.00


Oh, you can buy em here
http://www.warbirdrelics.com/armament.htm

It would seem each position had its own particular type of ammo box.
so depending on which one it was you were trying to load the difficulty of reloading would change.
Here is an ammo box for the belly gunner.
Sorry. this one not for sale lol


Im not what one would call a buff driver. I do on occasion but the time I spend in buffs is very rare
I am not at all adverse to this idea so long as there is a re-arm delay similar to what we have on the re-arming pad.

IT has its advantages as well as its drawbacks.
While being able to have more ammo per gun per flight would be available.
Imagine that sick feeling you will get when caught in the middle of re-arming you suddenly see that 190 you  missed boring down opn you