Author Topic: C5 crash near Dover  (Read 1375 times)

Offline eagl

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C5 crash near Dover
« on: April 03, 2006, 08:00:28 AM »
A C-5 crashed this morning near Dover.  The initial report was that 17 were on board and some were taken to a hospital.  As of now, no reports of fatalities.  The plane broke into a few pieces but from the pics it doesn't look like it burned and is mostly intact.

One news show said that the pilot had declared an emergency and was trying to land, but CNN.com doesn't have that kind of detail as of right now.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/03/c5.crash/index.html

edit:  moose beat me to it...
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Offline moose

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2006, 08:05:31 AM »
i dont know the interior of a galaxy too well, but i would assume that if they declared an emergency then the crew would have strapped themselves in for a crash landing. eagl is where the nose broke off aft of the crew cabin on the upper deck?

edit; oh, the cabin runs almost all the way to the tail.. saw the exit door with a slide in another news photo
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 08:07:44 AM by moose »
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Offline eagl

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2006, 08:12:57 AM »
It's hard to see in the pics exactly where it broke off, but I did see a fire ladder leading up to the rear of the cockpit section so it's probable that there were survivors up there.  I also noticed that all 4 of the upper deck doors were open with escape chutes deployed, so there may have been people up in the aft upper deck as well.  The rear cargo doors are open but again, no conclusion can be drawn from that either.

2 of the upper deck doors are barely aft of where the nose section broke off so the front crew compartment may have broken open and been split by the break, but again I don't know enough about the C-5 to really tell and the pics I've seen don't have enough detail to tell.

The upper deck isn't entirely contiguous.  The wing center box is not commonly accessed if I recall correctly, and the front top crew area is not easily reachable from the top aft passenger section.  The last time I flew in a C-5, I had to go downstairs through the main cargo deck to get from the aft upper passenger deck to the front upper crew deck.

I didn't see anything that looked like seats hanging from the split, so maybe we got lucky.  As for the location of the crew, the entire crew was probably in or near a seat and not all in one location.  Without knowing what the emergency was, it's not even possible to speculate if anyone was unstrapped trying to troubleshoot the problem.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 08:15:48 AM by eagl »
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Offline eagl

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2006, 08:29:13 AM »
This is exactly why I think UAVs are going to be limited use assets...  Had this been a UAV without someone inside the plane, who knows where it would have crashed.  Yea pilot error causes many crashes but when there is hardware failure, often only the talent and ability of the pilot on board to operate under ususual conditions can possibly save the plane.
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Offline cav58d

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2006, 08:53:11 AM »
Eagl...With all due respect you are dead wrong...Please check out the FAA's website with crash statistics...Or if your interested in a book check out "The Killing Zone: how and why pilots die"  The overwhelming majority of aviation accidents/fatalaties is due to pilot error...

And dont be so hard on AI intelligence in the cockpit...I for one would never step foot on a commercial airplane with a pilot flying, but think about what it his done for military aerospace?  Flybywire for starters...The f-16, and the space shuttle among others would be unflyable aircraft to a human without these systems....  How about spin and compression recovery systems?  Specifically designed to save the human after he intentionally or unintentially gets him aircraft into a scenario that is near impossible to humanly recover...

I am all for men in the cockpit...Thats how it should be...But with increasing technology its really going to be a big debate for our flying soldiers in the near future
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Offline Furball

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2006, 09:07:07 AM »
Ouch, hope they are ok.

Quote
The C-5 can carry 270,000 tons of cargo almost 2,500 miles on one load of fuel. The C-5's wingspan is 28 feet wider than a 747 and the military jet is 16 feet longer than the civilian airliner.


From that article.... :huh
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Offline cav58d

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2006, 09:09:45 AM »
Fox and CNN reported the accident happened during take off.....?
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Offline eagl

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2006, 09:13:19 AM »
Cav,

As a professional pilot who has gone through the USAF mishap investigation course and served as a flying safety officer for a few years, I will respectfully disagree and state with no reservation whatsoever that you are the one who is badly mistaken.

Taking pilots out of the cockpit will not remove the instances of human error not only because humans are just as involved in the manufacture, maintenance, and operation of UAVs, but also because for every one mishap caused by pilot error, there are COUNTLESS mishaps that are directly prevented by the pilot's actions.  You say look at the percentage of mishaps that are caused by the pilot, and I say you need to also look at the percentage of inflight emergencies that were saved by direct human intervention in the cockpit.

The thing is, those stats aren't as easily found.  But in my personal experience as a safety officer, I have either investigated or read the safety reports of hundreds of incidents that, had they occurred to unmanned vehicles, would most likely have resulted in total loss of the aircraft.

I am very in favor of cockpit automation and computer assistance to pilots, but those pilots MUST remain in the cockpit because the computer simply can't deal with unusual situations.  It is somewhat rare for an inflight emergency to involve a simple failure of one component, and quite often the first warning sign of a failure that an onboard system detects is really just a side effect of a much worse problem.

As an example, there was a recent mishap where a tiny leak in a hydraulic line sprayed hydraulic fluid onto a generator.  The fluid caught fire, but the only indication at first was a flickering generator light.  Before the crew landed, they had multiple systems failures and a fairly hot fire going in the fuselage, and only the presence of a pilot onboard allowed the plane to make a fast, direct visual approach to an emergency landing.  Had there been no pilot on board, even if every decision had been correctly made by a computer or human controller on the ground, the plane would have had to comply with strict instrument approach procedures which would have taken much longer, and the fire would probably have caused a total hydraulic failure or progressed to a fuel or structural fire by then.

So... you're wrong dude, sorry.
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Offline Furball

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2006, 09:15:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
As a professional pilot who has gone through the USAF mishap investigation course and served as a flying safety officer for a few years, I will respectfully disagree and state with no reservation whatsoever that you are the one who is badly mistaken.


i would say that cav has been comprehensively owned.

:lol
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Offline eagl

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2006, 09:16:05 AM »
They're reporting that the crew reported #2 inboard engine failure after takeoff.  A fully loaded C-5 losing an engine on takeoff is in a world of hurt...  Not an easy thing to manage.  I'm amazed that the plane didn't suffer worse damage or explode after what appears to be a hard off-runway crash landing.
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Offline Mickey1992

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2006, 09:18:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cav58d
Fox and CNN reported the accident happened during take off.....?


CNN.com is reporting that the crash happened during an emergency landing.  

Pentagon sources told CNN the aircraft "declared an in-flight emergency for a No. 2 engine flameout."

Offline eagl

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2006, 09:20:50 AM »
Hehe Furb...

I didn't even whip out my "didja hear about the global hawk that biffed into a mountain because the digital terrain database was inaccurate?"  That little booboo cost the USAF about 80 million bucks and a pilot may have saved it by just looking out the window.

I've got about 40 yrs worth of mishap reports to draw lessons from...
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Offline Furball

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2006, 09:23:49 AM »
lol eagl.

you may have comprehensively owned him, be an expert on the USAF, air crashes and be a fighter pilot....

but how do you explain the gay avatar?
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Offline eagl

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2006, 09:34:16 AM »
You don't like spidey?

Spidey was my response to a bunch of forum tardness from people who got into a pissing contest over their avatards.  They were taking it waaay too seriously, getting all mad and posessive, so I found spidey and hung him up there for everyone to see.

If it really bothers you, just pretend he's doing dance aerobics.  I haven't done it, but I suppose you could even follow along with him and get some exercise.  God knows most of us could stand to lose a few pounds, so get off your fat butt and dance with spidey.

Sheesh, hijacking my own thread... wotta moron, me.
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Offline RTR

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C5 crash near Dover
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2006, 09:40:08 AM »
hehe...eagl I chuckle every time I see your avatar.

As for the UAV issue.

My 26+ years of aviation tells me that without a doubt we need to keep the pilots IN the cockpit.

eagl covered that quite nicely.

Hope it's true that everyone got out.

cheers,
RTR
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