Author Topic: So... why all the neg G maneuvers  (Read 1070 times)

Offline Flatbar

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« on: April 03, 2006, 01:58:14 PM »
Lately about 3 in 5 times I get on someones 6 they start pulling these neg G maneuvers. There a new trainer teaching this stuff?

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Offline Bullethead

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2006, 03:17:30 PM »
Neg G is a very old evasive tactic, dating to DOS AW.  I'm surprise you hadn't seen it before.  There are several basic uses for -G in evasives, such as...

1.  The -G Barrel Roll
A staple of FWs, this is hard rolling + slight forward stick pressure.  The -G makes you look like you're nose is pointed in a different direction from where you're really going, making it hard for your pursuer to apply the proper lead to hit you.  Normally, you end up doing a spiral around the outisde of his bullet stream.  While doing this, the FW can gradually pull away from slower planes.  Dweebs and idiots complain that this is "stick stirring", but that's just because their framerates suck so bad they can't keep up with an FW rolling as fast as it can, and they're to stupid to realize this.  There is no "stirring" at all, just holding the stick to 1 side and slightly forward, and keeping it there.

2.  The -G Reversal
For use when the nme's close and you're way too slow to extend, but can still roll quickly.  You start turning in 1 direction, then apply fairly hard -G for about 1/2 a second.  Immediately after this, you release the -G, roll 180^, and start turning the opposite direction.  If you time this right, your -G helps you disappear under the nme's nose without him realizing you did it, and then he continues flying blind and turning in your original direction while starting to fire, thinking he's pulling blind lead on you.  But all this time, you're already turning the other way and are perfectly safe and extending away.

3.  The Low Yoyo
Everybody should know what this is.

Offline Tails

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2006, 03:32:22 PM »
Also some people (like me) will nose over into zero-G dives when possible to evade fire. Works surprisingly well, especially against HO attacks.
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Offline Bruno

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2006, 03:34:22 PM »
The 'neg g' flopping and jerking that I assume the original poster is talking about is just an exploit and is usually accompanied by kicking the rudder left / right over and over...

It is stick stirring and takes advantage of lag and the net code. Only 'idiots and dweebs' do it and/or attempt to rationalize it as some sort of 'skill'.

Offline dedalos

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2006, 03:36:55 PM »
Sounds like someone is a litle shore about being called a stick stirer or does not know what stick stiring is.  I would guess the first :D
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Offline Ack-Ack

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2006, 03:37:16 PM »
"Unloading" your plane causes it to accelerate faster then normal level flight acceleration.




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Offline wetrat

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2006, 04:23:56 PM »
It's difficult to hit someone who's pushing neg G's... when I notice someone on my 6 too late (in really close) and I don't have any other options, I just kick my rudder and throw my stick forward. Not easy to hit someone doing that, and they generally fly right by. Not a preferred tactic, but it works in a pinch.
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Offline Sikboy

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2006, 04:32:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
"Unloading" your plane causes it to accelerate faster then normal level flight acceleration.




ack-ack


That's usually when I use it, or at least why I'll use it instead of pulling Gs in an evasive.  

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Offline Flatbar

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2006, 04:35:35 PM »
To clairify, I was talking about when a target banks left then pushes on the stick to make the plane go the opposite way. I've seen it in all directions. Unloading in a zoom or dive is a different situation and I've seen and used that tactic since I started flying AW on AOL

Lately I've seen a lot of this type of maneuver and it seems that most of the ones that do it continue until the plane stalls or they get killed. I really have no problem with that tactic since his virtual life is hanging on wheather he can force a missed shot.

Again, I'm just curious to know if some trainer has been teaching this style of maneuver to their flock.

Edit to get rid of a possible dis to the training corps.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2006, 04:43:32 PM by Flatbar »

Offline Pooface

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2006, 04:42:36 PM »
no, not a trainer thing. its all the noobs that do it, they dont know anything better lol

Offline Morpheus

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2006, 07:20:05 PM »
when someone gets on my 6 i scream QUAH!@!!! and bail.
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Offline Masherbrum

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2006, 07:43:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
when someone gets on my 6 i scream QUAH!@!!! and bail.


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Offline Wmaker

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2006, 09:30:04 PM »
Here is a quote about using a negative-g in a defensive maneuver from Kyösti Karhila, a finnish fighter ace with 32 1/4 victories.

I've used the exact same maneuver in similar situations as Karhila describes succesfully in AH many times.


"- What was the absolutely worst you experienced?

- It was on the 20th August 1943 as four of us took off at Kymi. Puhakka led us, there had been an alert: bombers approaching Kotka. Puhakka had a wingman and he ordered me and Flt.Mstr. Tuominen as top cover, but Tuominen did not manage to start his engine in time. The three of us took off, and as we turned our radio on, we heard that the enemy had retreated. Puhakka flew straight to the area between Seiskari and Lavansaari islands. Enemy aircraft could always be found there, and we did. Puhakka announced that he is going to engage, and I stayed behind to see to it that they should not be surprised. Puhakka and his wingman dived, soon I heard over the radio that they were in a dogfight. I checked the horizon, the weather was clear and sunny, nothing was seen. I looked down for targets to attack. I was just about to dive as there was a tap on my shoulder: it is true. As I looked back, there was a big white spinner at the distance of 20 or 30 meters behind my tail.

- That is the worst situation you can find yourself in, but I was prepared for it. Should I ever be surprised, I should engage evasive action at the same moment. I kicked my right foot down and shoved the stick ahead and to the right, resulting in outside barrel manouver. At the same moment the La fired, tracers flew all over my fighter.

- Do you hear the sound of passing enemy projectiles?

- No, it is masked by the sound of your engine and the airflow, but I heard the tac-tac-tac of the enemy guns. As I manouvered, the sand in the bottom of the fuselage was thrown about by the negative G force. Since I did not have my goggles on, some of the sand got in my eyes. I did some external barrel rolls, it is an uncomfortable manouver because you are hanging by your belt and straps. In the same time I tried to see where the La was, but I did not see anything. I recovered, but immediately dived again and looked back: there he was, a little farther behind already. I tried to think what the heck to do now, I thought of the situations I had experienced, of the standing orders, but in vain. I decided to keep on diving. If the enemy is going to shoot, it is more difficult for him to hit me because he has to dive deeper to get a lead on me. The La did not shoot, I continued the dive and thought that I really must do something. I recollected my teacher of Finnish in the school, he was a Home Guard officer and he used to say: " Remember, lads, attack is the best defense!" I never found out why he kept repeating this phrase, but now for some reason I remembered it. I thought: how to get to attack ? I must do something! I pulled the stick and climbed, I saw the La follow, but then I ran out of speed. I turned and kept watching the Russian. Due to my turn he was climbing higher than I was, I saw that now I have a chance to attack him although I am below. I picked some speed, then I gave the La some lead and fired. It was a good shot because the La pulled a turn immediately. Again I took deflection and fired, and he changed his turn. This manouvering enabled me to get behind his tail fairly easily. Then I just waited for a chance to get a good deflection. When I had a chance to shoot, the salvo hit the La and the plywood fuselage broke behind the cockpit. The front part dived, the rear part fell slowly and the red star was flashing as the rudder kept going. The pilot bailed out immediately and opened his chute. I may have flown around the man, making a gesture to him, and he may have shaken his fist at me, but I cannot swear what happened really... I often used to hope that I could meet with this pilot and learn what he was thinking as he had had the winning hand and yet he lost."

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Offline hubsonfire

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2006, 10:11:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bullethead
 and they're to stupid to realize this.  
 


"too stupid"

And yes, there is (or was) stick stirring, although the net coad has been vastly improved, to the point where it no longer seems to be a problem. If you're seeing this evasive followed by stalls or crashes, it's likely newer pilots who are much lower on the learning curve.

Wmaker, good story on a La-la dweeb overshooting and dying. :D
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Offline Kurt

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So... why all the neg G maneuvers
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2006, 10:32:03 PM »
I use negative G rolls quite frequently and I'd have to say as above, its not stick stirring at all, infact it doesn't require much input at all.  It's pretty effective for getting a guy to overshoot especially if he has proven himself to be a pretty good shot when you're using standard manuvers.

I've also found that negative G rolls with cross controlled aileron/rudder to be quite effective and dumps speed very fast forcing an overshoot... In this case you start the roll but use a little opposite rudder.. Kinda like a forward slip, except you allow the roll to develop and you keep neg G.

There are lots of things like that which I will try if I feel like I can't shake someone... Its that or eat trees...  The pine needles hurt my gums.
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