spanked by a p-38 last night

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by SAS_KID
well yall know the 38 is uber hehehe but once u make it hit 150 it drops like a rock now about in a flat turn but in other manuvers i've gotten it to like 125 at the moment but it takes forever to complete a turn. So you could have just done a real slow low turn and tried to get on his 6. So he would "extend" hehehe then rope you most likely or try.

Alot of people do not understand or know how to take the 38 below 100mph and keep it under control. Its not a hard plane to fly once you "get it". "Getting it" is sometimes more difficult for some than others. I've had people ask me if I could help them in the 38. I never found it that difficult to fly. I always stall fight in it, low, slow, with far better turning planes. Playing into their planes "game" then beating them has always been something I enjoyed doing the most.

Again, the 38 is not a tough plane to fly. Its sad to hear that its' been so badly porked that its nothing more than a light bomber now... But thats the way the cookie crumbles I guess. I think its a real shame though. Something I've enjoyed flying for years now, ruined with a few lines of code.

[Lazerr]

Sorry, but you can't outturn a spit with a 38 right now unless the spit is a complete idiot.   Go 2 or 3 turns with him, and break out, and restart.

38 needs full flaps to turn with these rides, and get maximum stall effect.  Right now full flaps has a bug with too much drag.  

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Lazerr
Sorry, but you can't outturn a spit with a 38 right now unless the spit is a complete idiot.   Go 2 or 3 turns with him, and break out, and restart.

38 needs full flaps to turn with these rides, and get maximum stall effect.  Right now full flaps has a bug with too much drag.  

Agreed ... There is not a P-38 that could fly inside my Spit V in a real knife fight ... I don't care who you are.

[AKDogg]

I have not yet come across a p38 that can out turn my hog in 1 on 1 situation low and slow or even at high speeds even before patch.  That is with the f4u-1.

[mars01]

If you had fought him from the start you'd have a good chance to defeat him - or die honorably and learn something about fighting instead of running.

Exactly - Running in a computer game is for sheep!

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Lazerr
Right now full flaps has a bug with too much drag.  

Is it bugged now, or was it bugged before?

[killnu]

its bugged now urching, pyro posted on it.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by MwDogg
I have not yet come across a p38 that can out turn my hog in 1 on 1 situation low and slow or even at high speeds even before patch.  That is with the f4u-1.

Prior to the most recent patch, the F4U-1 models (the CHog less so) could turn with the P-38s flaps out. However, the P-38J and P-38L would win simply by being better in the vertical. In other words, once both aircraft are down around 100 mph, the Lightning pilot can stooge around with the nose higher than any of the F4U-1 models.

However, since the full-flap drag bug was introduced in the last patch, the P-38s can no long get and keep their noses above the horizon with full flaps.

I did some testing with both types and found that with one notch short of full flaps, the P-38s can't turn with the F4Us.

In a 2g turn, I can fly the F4U-1D at 97 mph. The best I could manage with a P-38J was 114 mph. The Corsair was averaging just under 18 seconds per 360 degree revolution, whereas the P-38J was taking nearly 20 seconds.

All of the above aside, neither the F4Us or P-38s cannot out-turn a Spitfire flown by even a half-assed pilot. Sure, you can gain angles by careful flying, but anything approaching a sustained turn fight is going to go against the heavier fighters.

I know, some guys are going to argue that they have out-turned Spitfires with the P-38 or F4U many times... No they didn't, they simply out-turned a pilot who had no idea how to utilize the full maneuvering ability of the Spitfire.

Last evening, Soda, Murdr and I flew a "Trainer's Challenge". We challenge players to intercept us and prevent us from reaching a Bish base. Several came up to play. Soda and Murdr flew P-38Gs and I took an F4U-1D. We mostly played around with them, me playing rabbit with a SpitV while Murdr and Soda gobbled him up (over and over). I eventually stalled the F4U in while turning 85 mph circles with the Spit. I grabbed another F4U and headed back. Soda called it a flight (low gas, I think) and departed. Murdr and I continued playing with them as they kept changing planes looking for the magic ride. Eventually Murdr went bingo with empty guns. I ended up facing a pair of Spit16s on the deck flown by guys playing for only a few months at most.

Against relatively inexperienced pilots, you can easily out-turn their Spit16s with a Corsair, as this film of the final moments of the "challenge" shows.

I guess my point is this: Out-turning Spits with a P-38 or an F4U reflects on the other guy's skills more than your skills or your airplane. The MA is loaded with guys like these two; with little skills yet, but with lots of enthusiasm and no fear.

With equal pilots, a P-38 or F4U cannot afford to turn fight with Spitfires for more than a few turns. If the do, they will die. Better kill 'em fast or have an exit plan formulated.

My regards,

Widewing

[Toons]

hey guys,
thanks for the inputs.

i'm very new, about 2 weeks in, so i'm not flying any plane in ah to its max performance.  i want to try to learn how to excel at one particular aircraft, so i'm trying to stick with one or two planes most nights.

i like the corsair because it's a carrier fighter, and u.s. fighter, and is just bad looking.  but, i'm finding it hard to effectively fight with it.  

i've read through the aircraft descriptions, and the corsair seems like a high performance aircraft.  i just can't seem to figure out where it excels against my opponents most nights.

the bottom line, though, is that i never should have gotten in that position in the first place (bad sa) and i should've engaged off the bat.  once i tried to disengage, i gave up every advantage i had.  it never even occured to me to drop some flaps.

see ya,
toons

[mars01]

the bottom line, though, is that i never should have gotten in that position in the first place (bad sa) and i should've engaged off the bat. once i tried to disengage, i gave up every advantage i had. it never even occured to me to drop some flaps.

Excellent! (Burns voice off)

Each fighter has a primary roll so to speak, I.E.  Typhoon=BnZ and Spitfire=TnB.  Now don't get me wrong the guys that are good can TnB in a BnZ plane, but they are the exceptions.

The trick is to know where the planes fall in the above and then fly them to their limits.  

For the Corsair it is a really good BnZ airplane and it is a fair TnB if you know how to use it.  However, you will not be able to fly into 4 to 1 odds or worse with it and expect to survive.  Where as you could take a spit 16 into that situation and the odds of you killing them all or staying alive till a friendly comes to help are much better.

If you find yourself looking for fast paced action, against the odds, take up something that has average speed but can turn well - till you get better and more expierianced.

If you find yourself climbing and diving on people then take a faster plane and try not to get slow.

Don't be afraid to fight and die.  Every time you die you learn something.  Those guys that stay in their safety zone and never push the edge will only be so good.  Every time they come up against someone that knows how to push the edge they will lose.

[MAXIMMELMAN]

The first thing u did wrong was go vertical a p 38 can plaster you going high, i'm a p 38 pilot and i lay in wait waiting for someone to do it. I can maintain my energy level better and plaster him whiles he high and slow falling out the air. another thing what are you doing trying to run away, you can't outrun a p 38, a spitfire, 109 yes, not a p 38 you'll only die tired. What you should have done was dogfight him a little, try to bleed his energy and hit the throttles and get away you might have made it. The game in the p-38 is to wait, observe, and blow by them with speed and vertical performance and kill them. If i get locked up with someone i try to keep my energy up and go vertical to get away, most can't follow me, and i kill them on the way down. don't play the p-38's, game, which is try to outrun him, climb , etc, dogfight him and try to make lose his energy, then you kill him, it takes a patient pilot to fly that plane, thatts how they always kill me, i get impatient and start playing their game and then i die!

[Murdr]

Here is a quote from Widewing regarding AH version 2.06

Originally posted by Widewing

Next up was the P-38G at 75% fuel. Manual trimming, no flaps, I recorded 18.57 seconds @ 170-173 mph. I didn't bother with one notch and went straight to full flaps. I recorded 16.11 seconds @ 121-123 mph. Speeds were taken from film.

Loading 50% fuel, the same test resulted in 15.72 seconds @ 122-124 mph.

Now, if I really reefed it in super tight, working the rudders hard to maintain attitude and altitude, I recorded 17.23 seconds @ 103-105 mph. This produced a tighter radius, but a lower turn rate than the previous run.

My normal load for the P-38G is 50% internal gas and a single drop tank to get me to the party.

I also tested the P-38J, 50% fuel. My best full flaps results were:
17.59 seconds @ 106-108 mph
16.22 seconds @ 114-115 mph
16.13 seconds @ 122-124 mph

What is my point?  There are no absolutes, you need to take context into account.  Gross weight is a performance factor.  You can see this in WW's results, but you can also see it in Kwe's results between the F4u-1 and the F4u-1d.  The F4u-1d is going to be lighter because its fuel capacity is less.

Another factor is the context of specific maneuvers.  It has been stated that a P38 cannot out turn a spitfire in sustained turns.  This is entirely correct.  However, there are specific situations where I can loop with specific model spits indefinately.  There are specific altitudes where I have no fear of turning a P38 with a spit.  

You can take any model plane as an example, but most have strong points that can circumvent general rules you may have read about its dogfighting abilities, and the better pilots know exactly how, when, and where to deploy those tactics when the circumstances are right.

Oops, I have to hand over the computer now

[Saxman]

Using fuel PERCENTAGE to compare weights between the D and 1-Hogs is a bit troublesome tho, because as pointed out an F4U-1 at 100% fuel carries a bigger load than the -1D. I RARELY fly the 1-Hog at full fuel. Usually I fly her at 50%, which works out to slightly less than 100% of the D-Hog (Think it puts the main tank at ~85-90% full). WW will probably correct me on this, but if you fly at equal ACTUAL fuel levels the 1-Hog is actually a tad bit lighter.

[Murdr]

Yep sax, the -1 model is just a bit lighter than the -1D when they are empty, but with both at 75% fuel (which is what those test results were done at) the -1 is nearly 500lbs heavier because of fuel capacity.  If you were to compair the two at the same number of gallons fuel, they should perform nearly equally, with maybe a slight edge to the -1.

To carry that line of thought further, with the F4u-1D and the P38J loaded to 75%, the 38J will have about 800lbs more fuel weight than the -1D.  Again, evening up fuel weight, is going to close up the performance margins.  As Fugative said those 2 planes compair closely, and one can not automatically take for granted who will outperform who in flat out turning performance in the MA enviroment.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Toons

i like the corsair because it's a carrier fighter, and u.s. fighter, and is just bad looking.  but, i'm finding it hard to effectively fight with it.  

i've read through the aircraft descriptions, and the corsair seems like a high performance aircraft.  i just can't seem to figure out where it excels against my opponents most nights.

the bottom line, though, is that i never should have gotten in that position in the first place (bad sa) and i should've engaged off the bat.  once i tried to disengage, i gave up every advantage i had.  it never even occured to me to drop some flaps.

see ya,
toons

Well, as fighters the F4U-1s have few weaknesses. Basically, average climb rates and poor level acceleration are about all anyone can find to complain about.

You can partially offset the acceleration issue by trading some altitude for airspeed. Not a bad thing as the F4U zoom climbs like crazy and can convert speed into altitude very well.

Ultimately, the thing you need to learn about the F4Us is when and how much flaps to use. With full flaps, you can maneuver with good control down to speeds well below 100 mph. It has a powerful rudder that adds to its ability to change direction rapidly while hovering near a stall.

Ideally, the flaps can start being deployed at 250 mph, which is very, very close to the plane's corner velocity. This means that it can transition from high-speed turning to low-speed turning seamlessly. That's something the axis and Soviet fighters cannot do. Great roll rate, excellent E retention and relatively high critical Mach all combine to make the aircraft a threat under any circumstances. An added plus is how its landing gear was designed to be used as a speed brake. You can dump the gear at 400 mph and decelerate rapidly. This is usefull for causing overshoots, or rapidly reducing the turn radius.

Stick with the F4U. Come to the TA on a week night and we can practice in Corsairs.

My regards,

Widewing