put it to bed

[guttboy]

Dutch!

You brought fond memories back of destroying the spit factory!:aok

[CAV]

Yes to FT/TT.........

But Hitec needs to comeout with a few rules for the maps with FT/TT. And maybe a few MODs to inforce them.

One being no bombing inside FT/TT....

But on the same note... All other bases outside of FT is a target and open to attack even if the "Fighter only" types are trying to furball there...

Or HiTec need to comeout once and all and state what type of gameplay in the MA is OK.....Furballing... capturing territory.... Maybe he made so he watch us have a never ending food fight on the BBS.  LOL

CAVALRY

[hubsonfire]

Actually Chopsaw, the point of games is to have fun. The desire to inflict pain and suffering on others is likely the result of underlying emotional or behavioral issues. While the game may be a vehicle for those possessing such issues, it's not actually part of the game's structure or goals.

FDutchmn, what you said makes perfect sense.

[Bullethead]

FDutchmn said:

Actually, BH... there isn't one purpose... this entire thread and the rest which are alike goes to show that people have different purpose, each for his/her own.  Each with different style of playing.

But that's my point.  The idea of walling off an FT/TT area that's off limits to the landgrabbing porkdweebs is effectively the same, from the POV of those in FT/TT, as being in a separate arena.  So why not just go for another arena instead of setting up an anomalous area within an arena that's designed to be the very opposite?

The real rub is that FT/TT is NOT just like being in another arena from the POV of everybody else in the MA who is not in FT/TT.  Every FT/TT guy counts towards his country's perk balance, for one thing, so everybody else on that side is penalized unfairly due to country numbers, when many of the guys on that side are focused ONLY on their private 2-3 square sector area in FT/TT.  That's wrong.  Therefore, I see no reason why FT/TT on an MA map should be impervious to outside porkdweebing and landgrabbing.  If you're gonna affect the game for everybody else, then you shouldn't complain when everybody else affects your game.

If you ask me, my real preference on a map structure is like that of AirWarrior Classic where only the bases in the middle was capturable.  We didn't have discussions like this then.  This line of discussion only came when all bases became capturable in AW2, because imho, the objective of the game suddenly shifted to annihilating the opponent by capturing all their bases.

I much preferred the DOS AW system, too.  But it only worked back then because we could only have 60, later 90, people in the whole arena.  We can have 700 now, and even in AW2 we could have 2-300.  But neither the host, nor our FEs, then or now, could handle that many people being crammed into the center few sectors of the map.  The only way around that was to make more bases capturable, to spread the players out.  And once Kesmai got beyond Scavenger Sound, they decided, "why not make ALL bases capturable?"  And at that time, the RTS craze was at its peak, so making the whole arena into a huge RTS game with "tank rushes" composed of airplanes looked quite attractive as a way to bring in business.  So things perforce have remained, thanks to ever-increasing numbers of players and the inability of contemporary computers to be able to deal with them all at once.

We can't go back to the AW method, so the only alternative is lotsa capturable bases.  And unlike AW, where individual bases could be set to be capturable or not, in AH all bases HAVE to be, because they all require a map room to work, and the setting for the number of troops to take a map room applies to all fields.  Thus, without a major change to the whole AH terrain system, we're stuck with all fields being capturable.  Furthermore, because getting a reset requires reducing a country to a single field, the FT/TT fields MUST be capturable if everybody else in the MA is to be allowed to do their thing.

So, why don't I lobby for another arena?  Because I enjoy the company of the other players there and the choice of being able to furball or landgrab in a given arena.  Those are the only reasons.

That's all well and good, but IMHO there's no place in the MA for a sacrosanct FT/TT area.  If you're in FT/TT, your very presence in the arena has a noticeable effect on how the game plays for everybody else, and everybody else needs to capture your FT/TT area to achieve the object of the MA.  So you can't have it both ways.  Either you have an FT/TT that's subject to porking and landgrabbing just like everything else on the map, and accept it without whining when that happens, or you go off in your own arena or a completely different game where you're safe from interference and your presence has no effect on anybody else.  Those are the only possible options with the way the AH map system works at present.

Now, if HTC was to change the MA map system, so you could make uncapturable, unporkable fields, and these fields and the people at them had no effect on achieving a reset or perk balance, then the MA and an FT/TT area could co-exist on the same map.  But it's still silly, because then the FT/TT area would effectively be a separate arena, except for the ability to talk to people in "another arena", so why not just go with a completely separate arena?  That sounds like the simplest way to satisfy both sides.

[ChopSaw]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
Actually Chopsaw, the point of games is to have fun. The desire to inflict pain and suffering on others is likely the result of underlying emotional or behavioral issues. While the game may be a vehicle for those possessing such issues, it's not actually part of the game's structure or goals.

FDutchmn, what you said makes perfect sense.

Actually, hub, you're depositing the biggest load to date and I'm sure you know it.  (sniff, sniff)  Yep.  That's Bait-n-Bull, a fine old BK recipe.  If there is a member of the BK's that doesn't love it when their opponents squeal in frustration, I've yet to hear from them.  In the game or on the boards, you guys just love to inflict it.  This is not too different from the rest of the players.  Everyone loves the tingle of besting their opponent.  If that isn't inflicting pain and loving it, I don't know what is.

[hubsonfire]

2 counter points to all that, BH.

Things are the way they are, not because they have to be, but because HT hasn't felt like rewriting that part of the code.

The fields don't require a maproom to function in the game; the fields only require a maproom for the capture mechanic to work. At some point in the past, an update was released with a small bug in it. No V bases, if memory serves me correctly, had maprooms. Everything worked, except the capture process at that particular base type.

Also, the separate arena idea is bad in so many ways, it does not even merit discussion. When you start talking about the purposes and proper methods of gameplay, you're putting words into HTC's mouth. The only real mention of structure is that there's a 3 sided war with land that can be taken in order to have a premise for combat. That's it. Every other statement regarding gameplay goals, objectives, and the noticeable impact that furballers have on each other is solely your opinion.

Continuing along your line of logic, anyone not actively capturing land, or attempting to, should be booted to another arena. I disagree. There should be room for everyone to do whatever, without denying others their idea of fun.

Until such time as HTC lays down a specific all encompassing set of rules that dictate what is, and what isn't, acceptable gameplay, the folks only interested in FT/TT aren't affecting your gameplay, at all.

[FDutchmn]

You know BH, we are not too different in our ideas... I do see your reasoning, and what you are suggesting is also a solution (eg. another arena)  Quite frankly, I do think it is very viable solution.  Why? good example is when AW introduced several arenas of the same type.  As far as I recall, we had several arenas for Relaxed Realism Europe and people did learn to live with that, while before we only had one.  Well, for Full Realism there was only one.

But then again why does FT/TT have to be in a different arena when I would like to yell and scream with the guys that I usually do?  It's a matter of communication and going into a different arena will put a wall to it.  So, having a different arena for will not do... at least for me.  Yeah, you can say that I should learn or adjust into it... but... well.  I can't see it that way at the moment.

Ok, another thing about AW... I think when they made all bases capturable, it was too much a quantum leap of things.  I think the solution should have been a bigger map with more bases capturable but not all.  And this is what has not been tried out yet, on AW or on AH.  Btw, I also suggesting a change to the definition of what constitutes to "winning a war" because the way we have it today induces hordes.  HTC has tried to balance that with perk point multiplier or the ENY restriction, but that hasn't really worked as much as we all had hoped... I am assuming HTC feels the same.  The bottom line, there must be something not right with the objective that many people have in the arena.  This has to be changed.  I have suggested on these BBS several options that HTC can consider... including a map with the middle part capturable with several layers of bases capturable.  If we take a look at what was going on the ETO map in AW Classic, the furballers only need the bases at the edges. The rest could have been made capturable, thereby increasing the area for capture.  I think this has to be given a fair try.  We can design a map in such a configuration.  I still think this would bring the best of two worlds.

Here is another fond memory of AW... Yeah, it was mindless furball... I was Bz and we would up at the east end of the map in the ETO and fly to the nearest Az base and go into a turn and burn fight for hours on end.  It was endless... pretty soon, one of us would get fed up and say "Oh these stupid Az,  I am gonna put an end to this!"  He then proceeds to up an A26 Invader and places eight bombs on the runway and shut it down.  Then we all get on his case and say "oh you stupid f***, Look what you have done!  They can't up any more!  Our fun has stopped!"  So, lessoned learned here... while the game allows us to do that, all of us learned not do so because it wrecks the fun.

So is there any chance of applying this to AH... I think so.  Landgrabbers and Furballers can co-exist imho.  We just have to adjust the configuration right and the community needs to learn to co-exist.

This all is again my opinion...

Originally posted by Bullethead
FDutchmn said:


But that's my point.  The idea of walling off an FT/TT area that's off limits to the landgrabbing porkdweebs is effectively the same, from the POV of those in FT/TT, as being in a separate arena.  So why not just go for another arena instead of setting up an anomalous area within an arena that's designed to be the very opposite?

The real rub is that FT/TT is NOT just like being in another arena from the POV of everybody else in the MA who is not in FT/TT.  Every FT/TT guy counts towards his country's perk balance, for one thing, so everybody else on that side is penalized unfairly due to country numbers, when many of the guys on that side are focused ONLY on their private 2-3 square sector area in FT/TT.  That's wrong.  Therefore, I see no reason why FT/TT on an MA map should be impervious to outside porkdweebing and landgrabbing.  If you're gonna affect the game for everybody else, then you shouldn't complain when everybody else affects your game.



I much preferred the DOS AW system, too.  But it only worked back then because we could only have 60, later 90, people in the whole arena.  We can have 700 now, and even in AW2 we could have 2-300.  But neither the host, nor our FEs, then or now, could handle that many people being crammed into the center few sectors of the map.  The only way around that was to make more bases capturable, to spread the players out.  And once Kesmai got beyond Scavenger Sound, they decided, "why not make ALL bases capturable?"  And at that time, the RTS craze was at its peak, so making the whole arena into a huge RTS game with "tank rushes" composed of airplanes looked quite attractive as a way to bring in business.  So things perforce have remained, thanks to ever-increasing numbers of players and the inability of contemporary computers to be able to deal with them all at once.

We can't go back to the AW method, so the only alternative is lotsa capturable bases.  And unlike AW, where individual bases could be set to be capturable or not, in AH all bases HAVE to be, because they all require a map room to work, and the setting for the number of troops to take a map room applies to all fields.  Thus, without a major change to the whole AH terrain system, we're stuck with all fields being capturable.  Furthermore, because getting a reset requires reducing a country to a single field, the FT/TT fields MUST be capturable if everybody else in the MA is to be allowed to do their thing.



That's all well and good, but IMHO there's no place in the MA for a sacrosanct FT/TT area.  If you're in FT/TT, your very presence in the arena has a noticeable effect on how the game plays for everybody else, and everybody else needs to capture your FT/TT area to achieve the object of the MA.  So you can't have it both ways.  Either you have an FT/TT that's subject to porking and landgrabbing just like everything else on the map, and accept it without whining when that happens, or you go off in your own arena or a completely different game where you're safe from interference and your presence has no effect on anybody else.  Those are the only possible options with the way the AH map system works at present.

Now, if HTC was to change the MA map system, so you could make uncapturable, unporkable fields, and these fields and the people at them had no effect on achieving a reset or perk balance, then the MA and an FT/TT area could co-exist on the same map.  But it's still silly, because then the FT/TT area would effectively be a separate arena, except for the ability to talk to people in "another arena", so why not just go with a completely separate arena?  That sounds like the simplest way to satisfy both sides.

[Zazen13]

This needs to be read by everyone again and fully understood, because this is the core of the problem as it manifests itself in AH...



Here is another fond memory of AW... Yeah, it was mindless furball... I was Bz and we would up at the east end of the map in the ETO and fly to the nearest Az base and go into a turn and burn fight for hours on end.  It was endless... pretty soon, one of us would get fed up and say "Oh these stupid Az,  I am gonna put an end to this!"  He then proceeds to up an A26 Invader and places eight bombs on the runway and shut it down.  Then we all get on his case and say "oh you stupid f***, Look what you have done!  They can't up any more!  Our fun has stopped!"  So, lessoned learned here... while the game allows us to do that, all of us learned not do so because it wrecks the fun.

[Lye-El]

Originally posted by Zazen13
This needs to be read by everyone again and fully understood, because this is the core of the problem as it manifests itself in AH...



Here is another fond memory of AW... Yeah, it was mindless furball... I was Bz and we would up at the east end of the map in the ETO and fly to the nearest Az base and go into a turn and burn fight for hours on end.  It was endless... pretty soon, one of us would get fed up and say "Oh these stupid Az,  I am gonna put an end to this!"  He then proceeds to up an A26 Invader and places eight bombs on the runway and shut it down.  Then we all get on his case and say "oh you stupid f***, Look what you have done!  They can't up any more!  Our fun has stopped!"  So, lessoned learned here... while the game allows us to do that, all of us learned not do so because it wrecks the fun.

Item #1: You now have to convince 3000 people to play by unwritten rules.

Item #2: How many 13 year olds were playing AW @ $6.00 per hour?

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Lye-El
Item #1: You now have to convince 3000 people to play by unwritten rules.

Item #2: How many 13 year olds were playing AW @ $6.00 per hour?

That is the value of threads like this one and the 2 or 3 similiar threads active right now. The BBS and the posters therein educate the portion of the community that reads it. Those readers in turn disseminate that information to countrymen, squadmates and friends in game. It is by this process that we develop a standard of conduct within the community that tends to fascilitate the best gameplay possible within the framework of the game. That's how it was done for 15 years in AW and that's how it's done here. If anti-social/anti-fun griefing behavior is responded to with disdain and ostrasization, as we have done to LCA, then eventually the perpetrators will seek out a pattern of behavior that garners them more favorable accolades from their peers.

There were alot of teenagers playing AW. AW became flat-rate in 1990 or thereabouts so, FDutchman's anecdote from the past was almost certainly from the flat-rate era when there were a healthy number of youngsters playing. I was 19 myself when I started playing AW circa 1990. Obviously, we, as a community, do not expect those very new to the game to be automatically able to distinguish 'right from wrong' but we do expect a certain level of accountability in terms of adopting acceptable behavior based on their ever-increasing knowledge of the game and in-game feedback on the ramifications of their actions, both postive and negative.

So, it is our duty as aged and experienced members of the community to re-enforce and ingrain these standards of conduct within the game. It is necessary and vital we do so to preserve this game and this genre from the anti-social behavior that plagues any and all massively-multiplayer games to one degree or another. If griefing behavior is tolerated and permitted with no reprisals from the community, gameplay will suffer, customer patronage will in turn suffer and eventually this game and this genre will devolve into something that will have lost its appeal to the vast majority of paying customers and will almost certainly fail. We owe the community and this fine product our best efforts to prevent this griefing trend from snowballing into inevitable disaster...

Zazen

[dedalos]

Given the way the DA was fixed, if I were you and wanted TT or FT to stay around, I would stop complaining and/or asking for help.  Just do what I do.  First 2 runs every night are hitting ord of BHs.  Then post on 200 "News at 11 o'clock.  Ord down at ## field"

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by dedalos
Given the way the DA was fixed, if I were you and wanted TT or FT to stay around, I would stop complaining and/or asking for help.  Just do what I do.  First 2 runs every night are hitting ord of BHs.  Then post on 200 "News at 11 o'clock.  Ord down at ## field"

Yup, there should be a gentleman's agreement between all furballer that ord at FT bases is never allowed to come up. Announce you are killing ord  and the enemies let you through to do the job. Then it's back to "Air Combat"