RU Ready for RU846??

[Eagler]

Alright, I'll start it...

Is this medicine or murder?? Can we tell the diff anymore? Why was one of Clinton's first actions in office, the removal of Bush's importation ban of this crap? Why now just months before the next election has it been approved? To make the conservatives look bad, to get ALL women liber's to side with the Demo's. All politics.... Amazing when someone or some group who cherishes life is an extremist and insensitive.

Notice how the media isn't saying anything about this. Like it's a new aspirin or something. Someone should run stats in a year and compare how many children were killed with handguns and how many were exterminated with this "oops I made a mistake last night better pop a pill" solution..

 I believe you Europes can stay outa this thread as you've been flushing babies for a decade now.

sad, sad, world  

[Eagler]

Err .. Excuse me RU-486, still doesn't change what it does  

Just appreciate the distractions from reality, i.e. AH, as reality keeps getting weirder and weirder...............

 

[1776]

Now giving a pill to someone that produces death is A-OK.  If you are over 70, be careful of the pills given to ya

No respect for life at both ends of life is going to become common, I fear.

[Udie]

 It's abhorent, but at least it's not partial birth abortion.  Personaly I am pro-life.  I don't think abortion is a fedral isue though. It's not in the constitution so it's in the pervue of the states, period.  The more I think about the fact that part of my tax money goes to pay for abortion, the more it makes me want to quit paying taxes.

 To the pro-choicers,  ok the supreme court says you have the right to kill an unborn child, but what gives anybody the right to make me pay for it?  Don't I have the right to not pay for what I consider to be murder?  I wonder how many pro-choice people know what actualy happens in a partial birt abortion in the 3rd trimester?

 My dad was born in the 7th month of his mother's pregnancy. Back in 1942, he turned out a/ok.  There are babies aborted everyday that are in the 8th month    My step brother has spinal bifida (sp?) He as a very seveer case and he wasn't even suposed to live past his first night, his spine was open to the air when he was born.  Well about 15 operations and 21 years later he's still kickin some serious arse.   He's had some hard times, but he's taught my family soooooo much about love, and he loves life.  Alot of people today would have aborted him        I guess my point is that I think that life is presious and always deserves a chance.

 I don't think we should talk about this here though.  This issue I think will rip our nation apart, we probobly deserve it...

Udie

[This message has been edited by Udie (edited 10-02-2000).]

[straffo]

 

I believe you Europes can stay outa this thread as you've been flushing babies for a decade now.

The fact that it's legal in my country doesn't imply that I'm OK with that!

And as far as I know (for France) you cannot have this pill like aspirin (in your local supermarket) it's not that simple.

And you forget one think : for the woman it's not a simple Yes/No decision ...
We man have generally not this kind of decision to do...

 

It's abhorent, but at least it's not partial birth abortion. Personaly I am pro-life. I don't think abortion is a fedral isue though. It's not in the constitution so it's in the pervue of the states, period. The more I think about the fact that part of my tax money goes to pay for abortion, the more it makes me want to quit paying taxes.

How can you resume this to : I pay or not my tax ?
Personnaly I'm proud to pay tax ! to help people have a better life/chance I believe in redemption

 

My dad was born in the 7th month of his mother's pregnancy. Back in 1942, he turned out a/ok. There are babies aborted everyday that are in the 8th month  

In my country it's illegal! except for medical reason (generally a non-viable baby  )
Btw you and your familly are exceptionnally lucky you have a brother to love ... my older brother (birth dead because of Spina Bifida ) didn't have this chance  
And my mother didn't abort ...

Regards

[Toad]

What I find funny is that generally, those who oppose Captial Punishment of convicted criminals usually support Abortion-On-Demand.

You hear the "Better that 10,000 guilty murderers go free than one innocent man die by mistake."

But then....(and these are just MY views...think what you like!...and in some cases, aborts are necessary and justifiable)

Conception X-----------------------X Birth

No one on this planet can say with 100% certainty just exactly when along the timeline from conception to birth the little blob of rapidly dividing cells becomes a HUMAN BEING. Clearly, SOMEWHERE along that line, that HAPPENS. It's no longer an "organism", it's a "person".

....and NO ONE knows just when that is.

But that's OK...because NOW these same people that can't abide Capital Punishment say:

"Better that 10,000 possibly alive human beings be slaughtered like cockroaches than one poor girl who got liquored up at the office Christmas party be inconvenienced for 9 months!"

I love that sort of stuff....always makes me smile.

[hblair]

Toad for President.

[funked]

I agree Toad, bass-ackwards.

[hblair]

To expand on this a little more...

I am pretty much in line with what Bush said in the debate last night. I think abortions should become much less common. Abortions are now (and have been for a long time) just another method of contraception. For whatever reasons, people are not taking responsiblity for their actions when it comes to this issue.

I say this from personal experience of my own. Ya see, I was a damn idiot 11 years ago. My girlfriend (wife now) and I were faced with an unwanted pregnancy at the time. Instead of being a man with balls and telling her parents what had happened and asking her to marry me, I did the slimey thing and paid 300-400 bucks to have my first born child terminated.

You always see pro-choicers with seemingly big wonderful smiles on their faces, preaching about a womens *choice*, and leaving off the rest of the story. You know, the part about you catching your wife crying in the middle of the night (many times over the years) talking about the baby would be so and so age now, starting school, etc. Would he/she look like me or you?

I don't take a womans rights lightly, but this issue is way bigger than just womens rights. Heck, seems like its usually the sorry assed guy (like I was) that pressures a woman that way.

Do I make any sense? I tried anyway.

[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 10-04-2000).]

[Eagler]

hblair/udie
You speak the truth & from the heart. Sorry for your loss hblair, it takes guts to tell your story. I am reassured when I read these posts. It gives me hope.
Eagler


[This message has been edited by Eagler (edited 10-04-2000).]

[wrench]

I am pro life. But not Anti-choice.

One thing I would like to point out. I heard a woman running for congress in a debate a week or so back on NPR, she said this: "Senator (forgot his name), has voted 7 times against your right to determine your reproductive destiny. I will support your right to choose."

Reproductive destiny, womans right to choose, it's her body...

So as a man I ask all you other men this.

How is it that a woman can have sex, get pregnant, and for months still be in control of her "reproductive destiny"...YET, a man, even if he has taken steps to prevent a pregnancy, loses the right to his reproductive destiny the moment he has sex?

That's right women today are independent, it's her body, she has the right to choose and control her reproductive destiny! The man or DONOR has no say in this, even in a marriage!

BUT, if she chooses to have the kid, YOU pay up buddy! From independent, control of my destiny,  modern woman to, "hey you did this to me, where is my money? I need support, child care, medical insurance, and oh yeah, did you get a raise? Time for a visit to court for more money"

Today fail to pay up to a woman who has controled her reproductive destiny and we will hunt  you down and throw your deadbeat self in jail  

Women should stand up like men and take full responsibility for their choice. They get pregnant they make a choice and so does the man. If he chooses to NOT BE THE FATHER, well, time to show us that independent, in control, I dont need a man's input it aint his body stuff ladies.

But you see they are not really independent, I don't know what they are lately.

Also, why do we still take a woman's word for who the father is, we should just make it a standard test. Of course if we did that, a lot more women would find themselves independent real quick.

Wrench

[Dowding]

Eagler - since I am a 'Europe' [sic] (and can't post here), I've replied to you in the 'Mark Chapman' topic.

[StSanta]

Udie said:

It's abhorent, but at least it's not partial birth abortion. Personaly I am pro-life. I don't think abortion is a fedral isue though. It's not in the constitution so it's in the pervue of the states, period. The more I think about the fact that part of my tax money goes to pay for abortion, the more it makes me want to quit paying taxes.

Well, antural abortions then? Also abhorrent? This pill essentially produces this exact thing.

Calling something that early in development an unborn baby is like calling an egg and sperm combination for an unborn baby.

Mastubration kills millions. Menstruations too, following this logic.

To the pro-choicers, ok the supreme court says you have the right to kill an unborn child, but what gives anybody the right to make me pay for it? Don't I have the right to not pay for what I consider to be murder? I wonder how many pro-choice people know what actualy happens in a partial birt abortion in the 3rd trimester?

You shouldn't have to pay, period. I still disagree with the term "unborn child" as it is technically inaccurate and is an appeal to emotions, i.e a logical fallacy.

My dad was born in the 7th month of his mother's pregnancy. Back in 1942, he turned out a/ok. There are babies aborted everyday that are in the 8th month  My step brother has spinal bifida (sp?) He as a very seveer case and he wasn't even suposed to live past his first night, his spine was open to the air when he was born. Well about 15 operations and 21 years later he's still kickin some serious arse. He's had some hard
times, but he's taught my family soooooo much about love, and he loves life. Alot of people today would have aborted him    I guess my
point is that I think that life is presious and always deserves a chance.

For every such success tory, there are 100 horror stories. Such late abortions are either done out of medical reasons (danger to the mother) or compassionate one (I've seen kids born who've suffered their entire short lives while having a job at the hospital where my father works). I've seen more than one case of this. But, it should be up to the parents to a large degree.

I don't think we should talk about this here though. This issue I think will rip our nation apart, we probobly deserve it...

It's a tough issue, for sure. Not so much here as in the US. But I think the American people are strong enough to pull through this even with their differences in opinions. Extremists from both camps will likely make it a painful process, but yanks will come through, as always.

Toad said:

What I find funny is that generally, those who oppose Captial Punishment of convicted criminals usually support Abortion-On-Demand.

Well, there is the issue of personhood ivolved for one and right of self determination. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.
<snip>

No one on this planet can say with 100% certainty just exactly when along the timeline from conception to birth the little blob of rapidly dividing cells becomes a HUMAN BEING. Clearly, SOMEWHERE along that line, that HAPPENS. It's no longer an "organism", it's a "person".

We grant personhood upon birth, legally. But,  this aside, there are well established stages in human development, and the science is pretty rock solid. A blob without a CNS is as much a human as a caterpillar is a butterfly.

....and NO ONE knows just when that is.
It varies to some extent too, and there are "grey" time zones. Then there also are black and white.

"Better that 10,000 possibly alive human beings be slaughtered like cockroaches than one poor girl who got liquored up at the office Christmas party be inconvenienced
for 9 months!"

Try 9 months and 18 years. Nevertheless, it's not an issue of inconvenience, but right of self determination. I find it amusing that so many pro gunners who value freedom so highly have no qualms about revoking the right of self determination from women. Especially as they themselves are not in the risk of losing it.
 
I love that sort of stuff....always makes me smile.

Ironic, isn't it?

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
 

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 10-07-2000).]

[Eagler]

Notice how the libs always have to get the last word in? As if that makes them right.
 Eagler

[Dowding]

Reposted from another topic:

"I believe you Europes can stay outa this thread as you've been flushing babies for a decade now." If you can't take people putting forward an argument that opposes yours Eagler, what are you doing here? And besides, how long as abortion been legal in the States?

RU846 is called the 'morning after pill' over here I think (might be wrong). This is prescribed, as the name suggests, usually the day after sex which did not go according to (the family) plan. It is NOT given in all cases as a 'DIY murder pill', since it is entirely possible that a viable egg is not present or has not been fertilised in that time. If a fertilised egg is present, then I agree that abortion occurs, however, but at such an early stage that I have no problem with it. If you want to read my thoughts on abortion and when it should be carried out, they are given in brief below. But you probably won't Eagler, since I am a 'Europe' [sic], despite the fact we have late-term abortion, the morning after pill and I've had experience of the latter.

 

Posted by Toad:

So, Dowding, where will YOU draw the line? 1000 cells? 3 Months? 4 Months?

First of all, you simplify the whole development of a human being, as if each part is developed at the same rate, at the same time. It's not as simple as that; you know its not simple uniform cell division. Here's my take on it:

In this country abortion is offered as late as 20 weeks (I think). I'm ambivalent with this and feel uncomfortable with it. However, the distribution of abortions over time is not uniform - very few are carried out at this late stage, with most being in the 4-6 week stage.

At four weeks the embryo (which was disc shaped) starts to take on some of the features of a foetus. At this point there is no CNS, but there are buds for the limbs and a bulge where the heart is (which is the first organ to be developed). I have no qualms with abortion at this stage.

As time goes on however, and the CNS starts to develop along with the other vital organs, I have to say I agree less with abortion. The end of the foetal stage (8 weeks), would be the limit on abortion if I had the power to change legislation.



[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-09-2000).]