Hanoi Jane movie

[Nash]

fine whatever

[Mr Big]

BTW, you are being a dipchit. Do you ever really think about some of the things you type here? I mean, really.

[Nash]

'course - what are you getting at?

[Mr Big]

you just seam so simplistic and ignornant in a lot of ways.

I like you. You have talent and are creative. You have a lot going for you, but you seem to have a side to yourself that just won't let you grow up.

[Nash]

Well then... good for me.

[DiabloTX]

You 2 get a room.

[aztec]

Originally posted by Mr Big
but you seem to have a side to yourself that just won't let you grow up.

Well Mr Big you've certainly made a big impression.

[Stringer]

Originally posted by Mr Big


The "fiasco" of the Vietnam war was a result of the north invading the south. The "fiasco" was a result of the US defending the south against invasion by the north. Maybe the US and South VN should have just rolled over for the commies?

I'm pretty sure you don't know your arse from page 8 on this one.

Of course, the deal that Truman cut with the French to keep Vietnam under their colonial rule had nothing to do with the later mess at all.

Those POW's were there not because of some stupid tart, but directly because of McNamara, et. al.

[Toad]

String, I don't think you can lay it all at Truman's feet. FDR had his chances but somehow missed every single one. Amazing, eh?

The Pentagon Papers

Ultimately, U.S. Policy was governed neither by the principle s of the Atlantic Charter, nor by the President's anti-colonialism but by the dictates of military strategy and by British intransigence on the colonial issue.

The United States, concentrating its forces against Japan, accepted British military primacy in Southeast Asia, and divided Indochina at 16th parallel between the British and the Chinese for the purposes of occupation. . U.S. commanders serving with the British and Chinese, while instructed to avoid ostensible alignment with the French, were permitted to conduct operations in Indochina which did not detract from the campaign against Japan.

Consistent with F.D.R.'s guidance, U.S. did provide modest aid to French--and Viet Minh--resistance forces in Vietnam after March, 1945, but refused to provide shipping to move Free French troops there. Pressed by both the British and the French for clarification U.S. intentions regarding the political status of Indochina, F.D.R- maintained that "it is a matter for postwar."

The President's trusteeship concept foundered as early as March 1943, when the U.S. discovered that the British, concerned over possible prejudice to Commonwealth policy, proved to be unwilling to join in any declaration on trusteeships, and indeed any statement endorsing national independence which went beyond the Atlantic Charter's vague "respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live."

So sensitive were the British on this point that the Dumbarton Oaks Conference of 1944, at which the blueprint for the postwar international system was negotiated, skirted the colonial issue, and avoided trusteeships altogether. At each key decisional point at which the President could have influenced the course of events toward trusteeship--in relations with the U.K., in casting the United Nations Charter, in instructions to allied commanders--he declined to do so; hence, despite his lip service to trusteeship and anti-colonialism, F.D.R. in fact assigned to Indochina a status correlative to Burma, Malaya, Singapore and Indonesia: free territory to be reconquered and returned to its former owners.

Non-intervention by the U.S. on behalf of the Vietnamese was tantamount to acceptance of the French return. On April 3, 1945, with President Roosevelt's approval, Secretary of State Stettinius issued a statement that, as a result of the Yalta talks, the U.S. would look to trusteeship as a postwar arrangement only for "territories taken from the enemy," and for "territories as might voluntarily be placed under trusteeship." By context, and by the Secretary of State's subsequent interpretation, Indochina fell into the latter category. Trusteeship status for Indochina became, then, a matter for French determination.

Shortly following President Truman's entry into office, the U.S. assured France that it had never questioned, "even by implication, French sovereignty over Indo-China." The U.S. policy was to press France for progressive measures in Indochina, but to expect France to decide when its peoples would be ready for independence; "such decisions would preclude the establishment of a trusteeship in Indochina except with the consent of the French Government." These guidelines, established by June, 1945--before the end of the war—remained fundamental to U.S. policy.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Stringer
I'm pretty sure you don't know your arse from page 8 on this one.

Of course, the deal that Truman cut with the French to keep Vietnam under their colonial rule had nothing to do with the later mess at all.

Those POW's were there not because of some stupid tart, but directly because of McNamara, et. al.

It's pretty absurd to lay cause for the vietnam war at hanoi janes feet.  It is however not at all absurd to declare that her actions pursuant to the war cost more lives by encouraging and assisting the enemy. It is also not at all absurd connect her vile diatribes regarding the quality of american troops to the treatment of troops by anti-war activists here at home.

By the time I came home it was SOP for American Servicemen to be required to change into civilian clothes before using public transportation inside the US.

[Timofei]

58,248 names on this wall, they died  for what ?
Jane Fonda is a hero.

[Toad]

Such a hero that the line to piss on her grave will stretch from sea to shining sea.

[Stringer]

Toad,
Thanks for that info.  I had just watched a program the other night on Truman and they had mentioned that as well.

[Pongo]

I have learned alot from this thread,
But to argue that Fonda prolonged the war(IMHO) is not a defensible position.

In order for her to have prolonged the war extra reslove from the US public would have to have made it possible to shorten the war.
There is no indication that is the case.  More resolve from the US public would have lengthend the war not shortened it.
All she did (and it is signifigant)was make it less comfortable to fight the war as a US soldier.  In this she was cleary setting her self up as the enemy of the US war machine generally and the service men that died and fought there specifically.
So she was earning Hangs hate but she didnt prolong the war. She shortened it.
The length of that war like the length of the occupation of Iraq is strictly a political decision made at the primarys and the polls.

[Debonair]

According to 56th Fighter Group ace Gerald Johnson (he was in charge of 8th AF B-52 late in the Vietnam whatever) poor execution was the reason the war went on so long & was lost