Author Topic: Why people think the 51D is so uber? (Read 3955 times)

Bronk · « **Reply #75 on:** April 24, 2006, 10:03:38 AM »

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Originally posted by Glasses
Likewise you've flown how many 109s P-38s F4Us or 190s???

I'm going by what was reported of the aircraft in the field and what one documentary of "flying the P-51"

In which they flew a refurbished P-51, if I'm not mistaken it was the same guy that died later flying a 109.

It's like saying that the super laminar flow of the P-51 also allowed it to defy the thrust to weight of the aircraft or dropping full flaps allowed to grow a second wing as it performs in AH. It allowed it with a 1700hp engine and a weight of 12k lbs to reach higherspeeds due to the lower drag profile compared to other aircraft , it was however not too stellar in acceleration,not only that but it had a very vulnerable radiator, and this has been said from people who got shot down flying it during low raids over German occupied Europe. Yet in AH it can take a bunch of hits and keep on flying, heck even 20mm rounds to the cockpit don't phase it.

1 I am not claiming anything YOU are.

2 I believe S.O.P. was to burn off the AUX tank first. Once that was emptied the cg problem was eliminated. Of course just going by what I have reading, told, and seen on documentaries . HMMM just like YOU.

3 HMM in AH yup it has slow excell, cooling system is made of glass. Strange I have taken damage damage from GF in AH when i make low pass over a GV defended field. Where do i get this force field you seem to think the mustang has. Btw I no longer use the 51 for this purpose Jug does it much better. You know its really strange I killed 3, 51 ds just last night. What uber weapon platform was I using 51b . Yup that's right 4 .50 cal . Please tell the whiners in the other thread that the .50 cal is to uber and must be porked.

Bronk

Glasses · « **Reply #76 on:** April 24, 2006, 08:47:07 PM »

In AH P51B=P-51D-2 *.50cals, so again no challenge.

Thing is you need a P-51 to kill a P-51. Then again most pilots in AH don't fly too well in it. A mediocre pilot in AH can become a good one while flying a good one an excellent pilot and an excellent one into a God.

Glasses · « **Reply #77 on:** April 24, 2006, 08:48:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by F4UDOA
Kev,

>Only 'uber' fighter of WW2 was the 262, and perhaps the Meteor III. (No one side had a big performance advantage prior to these)

Agreed!! IMHO the peak of fighter design occurred in the 1950's. They may be better but they will never be as cool. I love my F4U's but I also love the B-58 Hustler, F9F Panther/Couger, F-86, Vampire etc. Again not uber just cool as can be.

HoHun,

Thanks for the explanation. I have seen it many times but never understood what it represented. I did not see it mentioned in the NAVAER documents but I will definitley revisit my files and search for some examples. Does it make a difference what the critical mach number is on the aircraft or is it dependand on speed and altitude only? Just wondering if I am more likely to see it on different A/C.

I think the Vought document shows the P-51B with 180 gallons of internal fuel. Had it been the D with 260 gallons I am sure it would shown better. I am not familiar with a similar AAF protocol.

Karnak,

That is the artical. I have seen interviews with the pilots of the OFMC where they speak of the P-51 as being a strickly high speed airplane and the Spitfire as being somewhat relucant at higher speeds but being very fluid at low to medium speeds. Annecdotal but interesting never the less.

That's why I say HT and crew should Make Sabres and MiGs no question about who won the war in that one because it was a tie

So the arguement of giving a favorable performance to one side or the other is moot.

Krusty · « **Reply #78 on:** April 24, 2006, 08:51:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Glasses
In AH P51B=P-51D-2 *.50cals, so again no challenge. Thing is you need a P-51 to kill a P-51.

I'm going to take this opportunity to hi-jack this thread.

The B is different than the D. It handles the same, for the most part, but it has a different power curve, that's for sure. B is really a medium-to-high alt craft (but can go lower). D is low-to-medium (but can go higher). The guns do make a difference, in that 6x50cal will get you kills better, and will allow for snapshots (not reliable ones, but worth taking) whereas in the B you better saddle up and sit there getting that shot before ya fire.

As for the second half of what ya said, I got a 51D in a 47N last night, and today I got one in 51B in a D11, so as with any plane they can be killed by any other plane -- if they slow down

Kev367th · « **Reply #79 on:** April 24, 2006, 08:58:21 PM »

Sure you got that the right way round Krusty?

Always thought -

B - was good at low alts (engine sucked at high alts). I believe in its day it was one of the fastest fighters on the deck.

D - As the B, sucked at high alts UNTIL they fitted a Merlin engine.

Krusty · « **Reply #80 on:** April 24, 2006, 09:05:06 PM »

I'm pretty sure. I've checked the power curves, the B has a huge drop in lower alts (say 8-14k) then starts going above 15k or so. I think the D is the opposite, the supercharger is geared so that there's a second "step" between 0 and 15k, so that there's not such a bad dip in power, but this means that the step above that is the last one and the higher alt performance is a trade off. It still rocks up there, but compared to the B ....

They trade back and forth, it seems.

Glasses · « **Reply #81 on:** April 24, 2006, 10:24:12 PM »

The D had Merlins. They didn't put them in later.

As to the P-51s in AH they are essentially the same thing is what i'm getting at.

I can make 5 kills in a single sortie easy using the 51B. and make a little bit more in the D.

Widewing · « **Reply #82 on:** April 24, 2006, 11:39:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
I'm pretty sure. I've checked the power curves, the B has a huge drop in lower alts (say 8-14k) then starts going above 15k or so. I think the D is the opposite, the supercharger is geared so that there's a second "step" between 0 and 15k, so that there's not such a bad dip in power, but this means that the step above that is the last one and the higher alt performance is a trade off. It still rocks up there, but compared to the B ....

They trade back and forth, it seems.

Yes, they do trade back and forth. I've tested every fighter at 10k, 15k, 20k and 25k.

At 10k, the fastest 10 prop fighters are:

Bf 109K-4: 411 mph
P-51D: 407 mph
Fw 190D-9: 405 mph
Spitfire XIV: 404 mph
P-51B: 401 mph
P-47N: 399 mph
F4U-4:398 mph
Tempest: 396 mph
La-7: 394 mph
F4U-1: 390 mph

When comparing the P-51D to the P-51B, at 15k the P-51B surges well ahead of the D model, 424 mph, vs 407 mph for the P-51D. At 20k, they're dead even at 421 mph. As a side note, the 109K-4 does 426 mph at 15k.

My regards,

Widewing

Glasses · « **Reply #83 on:** April 24, 2006, 11:45:58 PM »

On paper in AH they do that but a K-4 cannot run away from a P-51D ever. Even with slight control inputs the K-4 or D-9 in Ah bleed a bunch of airspeed and they can neither out maneuver or out turn a P-51D. SO again my point being it requires nothing of grey matter to actually be sucessful in the D or B.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #84 on:** April 24, 2006, 11:53:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Sure you got that the right way round Krusty?

Always thought -

B - was good at low alts (engine sucked at high alts). I believe in its day it was one of the fastest fighters on the deck.

D - As the B, sucked at high alts UNTIL they fitted a Merlin engine.

We talking 51s? B was the first Merlin model. They operated alongside the Ds right til the end of the war. That tends to bug me in AH cause I'll take a B before the D. Fly along with some guys in Ds though and you can't keep up. Don't think it should really be that way.

Most pilots found the handling of the 51B better then the D due to the lighter weight and it was also a bit faster. THe trade off for the extra 50s and the all round view being improved was worth it though.

There shouldn't be much difference at all as the Merlins were the same. Might be like the Spit FIX and the Spit LFIX however with the supercharger set to cut in at different alts in the B vs D.

Allison engined Mustang was the A and it didn't have the high alt performance.

Image of 359th FG Mustangs, 8th AF in late 44. Note the mix of early canopy, Malcom hood B/C models and D models all operating together. A common sight with the 8th.

Krusty · « **Reply #85 on:** April 25, 2006, 01:36:35 AM »

Widewing: I thought so! Thanks for actual numbers!

Guppy: In real life they cruised everywhere, and they had the ability to goose the throttle a bit to stay in formation. A few MPH speed difference isn't a big deal in that case. However in AH everybody flies FFT so you won't be able to stay in formation, unless the P51Ds are concious of the issue and slow down.

J_A_B · « **Reply #86 on:** April 25, 2006, 03:22:32 AM »

"That tends to bug me in AH cause I'll take a B before the D. Fly along with some guys in Ds though and you can't keep up. Don't think it should really be that way."

Fly with those guys at 30K and *they* won't be able to keep up.

J_A_B

Glasses · « **Reply #87 on:** April 25, 2006, 10:39:27 AM »

Yeah because you know a Dora 9 with 4 extra MPH will be able to outpace those turboprop fighters .

TracerX · « **Reply #88 on:** April 26, 2006, 07:56:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Glasses
On paper in AH they do that but a K-4 cannot run away from a P-51D ever. Even with slight control inputs the K-4 or D-9 in Ah bleed a bunch of airspeed and they can neither out maneuver or out turn a P-51D. SO again my point being it requires nothing of grey matter to actually be sucessful in the D or B.

Acceleration of the 109 is usually what helps me get away from P51's if necessary. Couple of hard turns to slow things down, then extend. 109's will get to speed much faster than the P51.

ReyPirin · « **Reply #89 on:** April 26, 2006, 08:19:59 PM »

Yeah but you need the P-51s to lose their speed first don't you?