Author Topic: Gospel of Judas  (Read 655 times)

Offline Furball

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Gospel of Judas
« on: April 10, 2006, 01:26:10 PM »
Anyone else see this programme? very good!  quite an eye opener too, as to how early forms of christianity were run.

http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/channel/gospelofjudas/
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Offline Reschke

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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2006, 01:49:53 PM »
Yep I watched it last night. I enjoyed the entire program except for the closed minded attitude of Dr. Robert Schuller. Yeah I know why he has that attitude but from a purely historical standpoint with no religious undertones. I can't understand his stance of dismissing a historical document just because he doesn't feel that it would give him anything more than the 4 "accepted" gospels. Who knows if there is truth to what was written on the papyrus; being as far removed from that time as we are will never know.
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Offline Lye-El

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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2006, 04:57:30 PM »
I watched it. I also liked it. It was interesting that cherrypicking to support your agenda is not limited to this board. :D


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2006, 07:59:13 PM »
Very interesting.

It opens up a real can of worms for the christian community, they have to ask themselves if the new testament is true to the teachings of jesus. I found it particularly interesting where they talked about the one true god versus the god that created earth and the bit about thanksgiving for the bread. There were other extracts which indicated a more spiritual set of teachings as opposed to the more mystical teachings of the bible.

There were more than a few bits that fly in the face of modern christianity.

You have to wonder, if the other gospels that were binned by the early christian leaders would have lead to a different christianity than we see today (what was there... 30 odd dropped?)

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2006, 08:06:12 PM »
Remember the old adage, "God didn't fax the bible".  Substantial changes take place, especially over 2,000 years.
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Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2006, 08:12:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Remember the old adage, "God didn't fax the bible".  Substantial changes take place, especially over 2,000 years.


More like 200 years. Even if he did fax it it would appear that early christian leaders binned 90% of it in favour of what they thought was best taught.

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2006, 12:34:00 AM »
those old faxes weren't very reliable & the paper was a fortune

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2006, 12:36:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Remember the old adage, "God didn't fax the bible".  Substantial changes take place, especially over 2,000 years.


Eventually, he'll just say "Aw **** it" and turn the etch-o-sketch upside down and give it a good shake. ;)


or... I'd belive such things if I weren't a godless heathen. :)
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Offline bozon

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« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2006, 01:40:35 AM »
The one I'd really want to read is JC's girlfriend gospel. That Maria girl.

I wonder why it was destroyed.

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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2006, 02:01:58 AM »
Quote
It opens up a real can of worms for the christian community, they have to ask themselves if the new testament is true to the teachings of jesus.


What are you saying? We all know that Bible is 100% inerrant with 100% certainty. And I _know_ I'm right. :rolleyes:
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Offline DiabloTX

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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2006, 02:18:42 AM »
Seagoon?  Reply?
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Offline Furball

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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2006, 04:50:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Reschke
Yep I watched it last night. I enjoyed the entire program except for the closed minded attitude of Dr. Robert Schuller. Yeah I know why he has that attitude but from a purely historical standpoint with no religious undertones. I can't understand his stance of dismissing a historical document just because he doesn't feel that it would give him anything more than the 4 "accepted" gospels. Who knows if there is truth to what was written on the papyrus; being as far removed from that time as we are will never know.


i thought exactly the same.  it also made me think of how the image of judas in the bible has effected anti semitism throughout history, all because of that one man binned 90% of the gospels in favour of teaching a form of christianity which suited him.

it just shows that even with the writing of the bible, people used their personal agendas to crush those with differing beliefs and gain power to the church.

but then, i am very naive towards religion, and i may have misunderstood  :)
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Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2006, 06:41:42 AM »
You guys need to get a grip...on some texts on theology and ancient religions.  There is nothing "new" about the "Gospel" of Judas.

This is nothing more than one of the Gnostic gospels that were quashed by the early Catholic Church because it was so at odds with the accounts of the Gospels attributed to Jesus' disciples.

Gnosticism:  A collective name for a greatly varying and pantheistic-idealistic sect, which flourished from some time before the Christian era down to the fifth century, and which, while borrowing the phraseology and some of the tenets of the chief religions of the day, and especially of Christianity, held matter to be a deterioration of spirit, and the whole universe a depravation of the Deity, and taught the ultimate end of all being to be the overcoming of the grossness of matter and the return to t he Parent-Spirit, which return they held to be inaugurated and facilitated by the appearance of some God-Sent Savior.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2006, 02:30:26 PM »
Hi Diablo,

Quote
Originally posted by DiabloTX
Seagoon?  Reply?


Sorry I didn't see the thread, I've been sick for the past two days (sat under a massive A/C duct in a tennis shirt for three days straight last week, who'da thunk you'd end up freezing your way through a conference in MISSISSIPPI!) and I'm currently working on half-power, if that. The Iran Nuke thread just about took all of my energy to reply to...

Anyway, look none of this is new, it may be new to a lot of Westerners because Church history has largely been forgotten in the modern world. The reason it's getting a lot of play at the moment is that everyone associated with "Gnostic Gospels" research is riding on the coat-tails of the current Davinci Code bonanza. In the 1980s a similar phenomenon surrounded the "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" series and in some respects, Scorsese's Last Temptation of Christ cashed in on that movement.

Unfortunately, it's big at the moment, big enough that I agreed to write a review and critique of Dan Brown's book for a Christian magazine to coincide with the release of the movie, just because I know that I'll have to address it with my own congregation anyway.

Anyway, as I said, this is nothing new, its yet another attempt to use ancient Gnosticism, to advance modern agendas. Gnosticism was a pseudo-Christian heresy that sought largely to create a synthesis between Greek Philosophy and Spirituality and the Christian faith. The Greeks in particular objected to the materialism of Christianity. In the Greek worldview that which was material was bad, and that which was spiritual or immaterial was good. In keeping with their philosophy, they preferred a religion in which one advanced beyond the material via enlightenment. The felt that the path to this enlightenment was via the assimilation of the "secret teachings" of various enlightened "masters" - hence their name gnostics from the Greek word for "knowledge." They also tended to reject highly material and to their mind "barbaric" and material religion of the ancient Jews. Therefore gnostics like Marcion dramatically revised the canon of scripture to remove the entire Old Testament and to leave only part of one gospel and some of the Pauline epistles. Additionally many of the various gnostic cults began writing pseudopigrahal "sacred writings" such as the Gospel of Thomas and Gospel of Judas to advance their particular theology. The heyday of Gnostic Gospel writing was in the 2nd through 4th centuries.

Even before the end of the first century though, the Apostles were already having to deal with the Greek distaste for the idea that Jesus was bodily resurrected. Keeping the body, "the prisonhouse of the soul" was not good news to the Greeks it was "foolishness" to use Paul's phrase. So we see even in the letters of the Apostles which may be reliably dated to the period between 50-90 AD many attempts to deal with proto-gnosticism and the various heretical beliefs it was advancing. For instance:

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

The specific, and for the Greeks jarring, word John uses is sarx - flesh. For the Greeks the sarx was the fallen or evil component of man, so the idea that a sinless savior, who was the Second Person of the Godhead, took up a real human body like yours or mine was for some totally inconceivable. If flesh was evil, how could an all-good savior become flesh? Therefore they began to develop theories that Jesus only "appeared" to have a body (Doceticism).

Anyway, the Greek problem is still the same for all mankind. Many ancient Greeks simply could not accept a gospel that went counter to so many of their core-beliefs. So rather than "unlearning" what they believed, they altered the gospel to fit their philosophical and spiritual worldview. People today do the same all the time. So many of the central concepts of the gospel irritate modern people to no end: That man is naturally sinful and fallen and hell-bound, that God sent his only Begotten Son into the world to Atone for those Sins, that Jesus really was the God-man and that he did real miracles, that He died on the Cross and then rose again in the flesh, that we can only be saved through faith in Him, and so on. The end result is that many people would much rather accept ancient gnosticism rather than the much more difficult to swallow teachings of Christ and his Apostles. There I can speak from my own personal experience. The only thing that will really overcome that natural disinclination is to be anaganeo as Christ and the apostles put it - spiritual rebirth, i.e. being "born again" through the power of the Spirit.

Hope this helps someone, somewhere...

Anyway, I've gotta get to bed, before I collapse entirely.

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Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2006, 03:04:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
In keeping with their philosophy, they preferred a religion in which one advanced beyond the material via enlightenment. The felt that the path to this enlightenment was via the assimilation of the "secret teachings" of various enlightened "masters" - hence their name gnostics from the Greek word for "knowledge." They also tended to reject highly material and to their mind "barbaric" and material religion of the ancient Jews. Therefore gnostics like Marcion dramatically revised the canon of scripture to remove the entire Old Testament and to leave only part of one gospel and some of the Pauline epistles. Additionally many of the various gnostic cults began writing pseudopigrahal "sacred writings" such as the Gospel of Thomas and Gospel of Judas to advance their particular theology. The heyday of Gnostic Gospel writing was in the 2nd through 4th centuries.
 


Two interesting points, how is the leaning towards spiritualism as opposed to materialism bad? And if jesus did teach towards a more spiritual/enlightened religion then this would tie in with the indian stories of him.

They also mentioned that the gospel of judas was acknowledged before the gnostics were in their 'heydey' by christian leaders. You can't write it off when the reasons give break down to one mans intrepetation of the number 4. In fact do you deny the teachings in gospel of judas are good... if not better than those in the new testament?