Author Topic: So what came first, the hording or the suck?  (Read 1641 times)

Offline WarRaidr

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2006, 12:18:25 PM »
lol it's a continuous cycle and i blame part of the problem on the TV commercial, some noob watches the commercial and thinks as soon as he logs on he will be the next virtual Chuck Yeager. After a rude awakening about how good a lot of the vet players are the noob will go to the sector that has the most friendly's flying in it.....so a horde is born, even though this horde will lack basic skills in ACM with so many lemmings in a sector it's just a matter of time till a lemming gets in a HO or a ram and sends you back to the tower.  What the solution is i don't know :confused:

Offline Wadke

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2006, 12:27:14 PM »
"The Suck" - Yah Drex came first

Offline CAV

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2006, 01:36:27 PM »
My $.02

The horde started way back many years ago in AW when the players started READING.....

Like many players when I first logged on the a game called Air warrior. I didn't know a lot about flying, ACM, SA, or air combat tactics. So I started reading anything I was able to find on the WW2 air battles. Web pages popped up all over the internet on how to play and fight in AW.

One of the first things they will take note of is.... flying alone is BAD. AW like AH had/hads (many are the same guys)  the best pilots in the online world. But if you had a wingman or two the great ones did die too. Then they would read more... Sqdn formations, Sqdn tactics, bombing boxes etc...

Then they start watching the history channel, reading more history about WW2 air combat. It wasn't about dogfighting, it was about killing the other guys air force and stopping them from flying.

All the flight sims, Air Warrior, Warbirds, Fighter Ace and Aces High are set up to Capture territory as the objectives. Some has arenas set a side for dogfighting, but all the main arenas in all the games are about capturing territory and winning a war. Like it or not.

They have the all things needed for warfair on the large scale... airfields, towns, cities, task groups, headquarters, factories,and ground combat. And ways to  damaged fields and factories or  resupply them by the  successful delivery of supplies. All this may not work great all the time, but for the most part it works, if your trying to win a war.

So  ....

Did hording result from people being incompetent at fighting, or did people being incompetent at fighting result from hording?

The way I see it, the players looked at the setup of the arenas, what the  objective of the game was.... Started reading about ACM and the history of air combat from WW2 to today and seen it wasn't about who has the best pilots... it was about Destroying the other sides resources to make war.

One can say... Germany in WW2 had many skilled pilots based on numbers of kills in the air... but they got Horded by the 8th Air Force using number, bombing the airfields, factories and all the other resources need to make war.

So I think hording is the results of not incompetents at fighting maybe.... But the results of History and the way HTC and all the other Flight sims have setup their main arenas. Numbers and teamwork may not win all the battle, but they do win wars. We may not understand reasons HTC setup the MA this way, but its still the best ones out there... Even if it needs alittle work on the strategic bombing system.

CAVALRY
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Offline Geeb 2

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2006, 02:57:37 PM »
Makes sence to me Cav.

Offline GunnerCAF

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2006, 03:26:29 PM »
If you don't like the MA hords, why don't you go to the CT, or whatever they call it now.  There is never anybody flying there.

I thought the MA was for cooperative flying?  If you don't like to cooperate, grab a tiffy and pork troops at every base, and it will bring cooperative play to a hault.

If that isn't to your liking, come in high over the hord, and drive through.  You can get at least two or three lemings to follow you a sector or two away from the hord, then you can turn and kill them in peace.  If you like, have about 15 of your squadies waiting to gang bang them :)

I hope this helps,

Gunner
« Last Edit: April 16, 2006, 03:30:46 PM by GunnerCAF »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2006, 05:21:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
In the fine tradition of the chicken and the egg, a new conundrum for you AH philosophers to ponder.  

Did hording result from people being incompetent at fighting, or did people being incompetent at fighting result from hording?



you should have asked, "what came first, the hord or the whine?"



ack-ack
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storch

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2006, 05:28:11 PM »
no conundrum here.  God clearly states in Genesis 1:20 that he created all animals so the chicken came first.  on to the next one.  the suckage came first that leads to the hording.

Offline Bruno

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2006, 07:05:28 PM »
Hording came way before the TV adds. AH was on a downward slide ever since AW closed up and they added a perk bonus for resets. Enormous squads entered the game with nothing much else to do then 'win the war'. The posts are there to be found that show that some were sounding the alarmstart way back then and a few us sounded it even earlier.

Before that it was CAG 33, or whatever they were called, running their 50 man base rapes. I recall looking at radar and rushing to get up expecting a good fight only to get 5 kills before my wheels left the runway as the horde 'tards suicided in all around me. By the time I was up and turning into the horde the sky cleared and the field was left cratered with the remains of the horde. I figured it cost about 10 lives per out house killed and even suggested that HTC add such a category to the 'scores'. After that there were Fariz and his missions. Fariz caught a lot of grief over those missions, especially from me. His intent may not have been a suicide base rape but the rest of the guys in the horde didn't get the memo I guess.

From then on the horde took over every aspect of AH and that's where it is today. To beat a horde, join a horde etc...

As new guys come in they want to feel like they are apart of the community. They want to 'get organized' and 'to have an impact'. They want to help their buddies and their country 'win the war' so they fall right in with the horde. 'Mindless furballing' to them just means dieing for nothing. At least in the horde, or in that wonderfully thought out and strategically masterminded mission, they can at least take out a few pesky and ever so clever out houses before flying their PEEEE-51s 6 feet into the earth.

To read the text buffer you hear things like 'I spent 10 hours yesterday porking troops'  and replies like 'well that's nothing I have the most troop porks EVAH..!'.

The AH main arena hasn't been about air combat for some time. Is that good or bad? I know how I feel about it but 'winning the war' keeps the arena full and the subscriptions paid and you can't blame HTC for giving the mass what they want. A few out houses to blow up and as many virtual lives as it takes to knock umm down.

Wotan mit uns!

Offline Knite

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2006, 07:17:05 PM »
Actually, I'm going to go along with CAV on this one.

When most people think of flying in WWII, they imagine the huge bomber formations, squadrons, and massive battles in the air. After all, that's what they read in books, and see on TV and in the movies. When they join a game that professes to be a WWII flight simulator, they expect the same... huge bomber formations, squadrons, massive battles in the air. I don't think it has anything to do with wanting to fly method A or B or be a good or bad pilot. I think it has to do with the expectations of people who come INTO the game, as opposed to the wishes of those who have been in the game for a while already. This problem is compounded with the frustration of the two crowds as they clash, instead of working together and influencing each other's styles.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2006, 07:19:15 PM by Knite »
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Offline Sloehand

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2006, 07:53:13 PM »
Let's not leave real human nature out of this.  Real people fought WWII and real people play this silly game.  Many pilots (particularly among the furballers it seems) claim to want to be as "realistic" and "pure" as possible when it comes to ACM.  Well, they'd be closer to their ideal in WWI air combat sim, not WWII.
Now I personnally understand doing either (furballing or toolshedding, yes, even via hordes), and engage in both as the mood suits me, though I admit the strategic value of the game, which requires the element of teamwork, coordination and communication, appeals to me more than anything else.  I'm not thrilled with joining hordes (as I understand the term) as it conotates no real challenge in winning.  I prefer a smaller, organized mission performed properly and successfully.  My horde joining is usually precluded by several days (even weeks) of being constantly outnumbered by the other two countries, and is an attempt to reverse the trend, not necessarily an occupation for me.
The "hordes" are usually no fun for anyone to stand up against, but the human nature to join with others in a common interest (albeit war or religion) is overpowering to our species.  It's how we survived the saber-toothed tiger and it ain't going away, not even for the mano-a-mano types.
I suppose if I wanted to heap some scorn on them, I could say that too many of them let their initial desire to learn and become proficient in aireal combat degrade into to ego-stroking score-whoring.  Not the majority I'm sure, but a noticable number, such that it's a "bad" insult to be called such.
So the result is, either proclivity can and is taken to the extreme in AH - 1v1 furballing to "prove" how good, better and manly you are to the point of preening like peacock, or only risking to join in with the largest horde to "scour" only the most undefeaded bases and unsuspecting enemy from the face of the map.
There is one depreciating difference though.  If the furballers really had their way, then what we'd have is a rather bland area where all you did was engage with one other pilot, win or lose, go home, rinse and repeat ad nauseum.  And we have that now.  It's called the New DA.
The war element of strategy, tactics, suppyly and capture gives the structure and context needed to make furballing continually interesting and different each time.  And of course, by definition and nature, it REQUIRES that some play the game to win, otherwise it would get boring quickly for all but a handful.
As I see it, while hording is an annoyance at times, it simply means that the arena is functioning well enough to provide those 1-on-1, ACM engagements so loved by some.  They should thank all the toolshedders and hordemongers, or at least be a little more forgiving.
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Offline lazs2

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2006, 08:06:19 AM »
That is one horde of a paragraph...

Thank the horders?  for what, ruining the game?   Nope.... we could get rid of 400 players a night and about 30 useless feilds and I wouldn't miss em.

And furballers don't want to win? BS... furballers play to win every fight... they know when they have won.   They just aren't afraid to lay it all out on the line like the horde warriors are..  

Look at the horde warriors.. they claim to be wanting to "win" but one  guy can draw off a dozen of em... they are so desperate to get a kill several of em will smash into the ground or killshoot each other...  they are so desperate that they will circle a capped field for 20 minutes hoping for a vulch... They waste time that could be used to "win" in order to maybe.... steal one kill from fellow horders..  10 of em could help defend a base that is over one sector and is being attacked by twice it's number butr....

They are frieghtened...

Winning isn't it.... risk free kills...  not being shown up... that is what they are all about... they are just insecure... worried that in any kind of odds that don't overwhelmingly favor them... they will get spanked in front of "the world" and laughed at.

They see the "you suck" messages on 200 and don't want any part of being expossed.

I don't know where they came from... when AW belly uped we got some good players and a crapload of these worthless ones.... maybe that is why AW bit it.

nope... the horders have made it a choice of "rock or hard place" most of the time... be part of a horde and be bored to death begging for kills or.... be horded...  thanks for nothing.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

Offline Dead Man Flying

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2006, 08:10:26 AM »
The suck came first.  It was there, in Air Warrior, even before the hordes.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Simaril

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2006, 08:41:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wetrat
First came the suck. Then, due to the suck, came the horde. Now, the horde makes it impossible for new people to stop sucking, and since they suck, they horde. Vicious cycle.

~rat


Nailed it in few words.

Having been ( as a newb) an assimilated part of the horde myself, I think staying alive is the biggest part of the swarm mentality. Look at the gaggle chasing any low con, and its obvious that the kill is on most folk's minds.

What separates the continually sucky from the growing player is the determination to move forward, even at the cost of asking for help.
Maturity is knowing that I've been an idiot in the past.
Wisdom is realizing I will be an idiot in the future.
Common sense is trying to not be an idiot right now

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Offline lazs2

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2006, 08:56:01 AM »
first you have to get over the missconception that dying in a game is the worst thing that can happen to you..... sucking is the worst thing that can happen to you with being bored right up there competing with sucking for first place.

lazs
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Offline Bruno

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So what came first, the hording or the suck?
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2006, 09:17:47 AM »
A lot of players suck, but that doesn't stop one from putting up a decent effort. It's the guy that gives up and is too afraid to 'suck' that ends up in the horde. In the horde he can hide behind of the rest of those that suck.

Most that enjoy the fight don't enter the fur expecting to 'get a few before they die'. They expect to fight and live but they aren't afraid to die or to even 'suck' as long as the blood gets moving.

The horde doesn't necessarily care about 'dieing' they are just overly concerned with getting killed by another player and being exposed as 'suck'. They have no qualms about auguring in to get that last out house etc...

90% of the time there's less 'strength in numbers' and more 'suck in numbers'.

If every one just accepts the fact that they suck and get over what ever aversion they have to be being shot down by other players, not only will the game get better over all, but most of us that suck may just evolve enough to 'not suck as much'.