Author Topic: Six F15's vs one Raptor  (Read 2243 times)

Offline indy007

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2006, 10:44:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
In real life the other side will have its own electronics and not always the kind you know about. Radar guided missiles are much simpler to jam and misguide than heat seekers, not to mention that you get a lot more time for it.


Again, kinda-sorta, but not. Okay, imagine this scenario... you've got a package of 8 Su-27s somewhere near the bullseye position covered by a flight of F-22s. lead F-22 starts collecting target data, the other 3 position on the sides & above. Target sorts are passed out & F-22s move to a-pole (extremely high Pk shots). A quick & clever sort will send 2 missles at each target, but from different directions (datalinks & the software make it really easy). 2 out of 3 directions means instant death for anybody in your flight, and those that pick the right way still have to deal with multiple high Pk missles. If you turn on your jammer, the missles go HOJ, and you die. Jammers are to prevent them from being able to bug you at range. Once inside of 20 miles it becomes a liability against both Eastern & Western missles with HOJ capability. Only stealth & speed can defeat those. A hard break to put them abeam is only going to buy you a few seconds at best at this range and chaff/ir bundles are your only savior, but there's still 3 bored Raptor pilots with AIM-9X missles on a trapeeze launcher. Somebody might see the raptor on radar very briefly during the missle launch, but you're still destined to be a kill marking. First look, first shot, first kill is going to win 99% of the time, and that's the best odds air combat has ever seen.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 10:50:17 AM by indy007 »

Offline Red Tail 444

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2006, 11:21:25 AM »
Model it for the MA and it will STILL get out run by the La-7 or PWN3D by the "HO Monster" 109/nikki potatos

:lol

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2006, 11:24:15 AM »
You left out the Hoicane.
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Offline ChickenHawk

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2006, 11:29:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
IMHO the F-22 NEEDS a gun and a manual backup flight control system.  


Let's hope our enemies haven't developed any EMP technology.
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Offline Iceman24

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2006, 11:46:45 AM »
why are we even putting pilots in the planes anymore. Surely they can hook up some kind of gear that will manipulate the controls back to someone like you or me sitting at a computer terminal just like they do with the drones the cia and army uses. Right now we are at the limits of flight because the human pilot inside cannot take the extreme G's that these newer AC are capable of doing....

Next question would be can the F22 fire the phoenix missile that the F14 was so famous for. ( I think it's a phoenix, the missile that can be fired from over 50 miles away from the old F14 and still hit an enemy plane over the curvature of the earth with no visual ID  )

Offline Chairboy

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2006, 11:50:30 AM »
No, the F-22 cannot fire the phoenix.

Didja know that F-15s have shot down satellites in orbit?  F-22 can't do that either.

Great plane, but different missions have different needs.
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Offline Iceman24

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2006, 11:57:58 AM »
do we currently have a plane that can fire the phoenix ?
If not what the heck are we doing then, that seemed like the best idea we ever had for A to A combat. I'm not sure if the F15's are still being made, I know theres only one base in the US now that trains F15 pilots and its in Oregon I think.... Of coarse when the crap hits the fan we'll just waste everybody elses planes while there still on the ground with our GPS guided bombs and cruise missiles so I guess its all good :)

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2006, 12:03:43 PM »
No Phoenix launching planes currently deployed.  It's a great technology, but probably less effective against modern fighters than its original target: soviet bombers.

Heck, I say mount two AMRAAMs on a Phoenix booster stage.  Booster takes 'em up and puts them on a parabola to the target, then the AMRAAMs independantly acquire and deploy while coming down.  With datalink, it's just a matter of time before the firing plane would be able to provide acquisition targeting data to medium/short range missiles from far away.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2006, 12:03:56 PM »
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Originally posted by Chairboy


Didja know that F-15s have shot down satellites in orbit?  F-22 can't do that either.


And why not?  F22 has optinal wing hardpoints that should be able to take anything in the arsenal.

Offline Chairboy

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2006, 12:08:53 PM »
Problem is, it ain't in the arsenal any more.  :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-satellite_weapon

Here's a pic of an F-15 launching an ASAT missile:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:ASAT_missile_launch.jpg

Actually, I don't know if it could carry it or not.  I'll go check.
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Offline Iceman24

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2006, 12:41:42 PM »
i like your idea about the ameraam's :)
Another thing I have always wondered, why don't we mount at least 1 or 2 missiles backwards, so when a con gets on there 6... bang there dead... if it can't be launched like that how about a twin 20mm canon with an automated targeting system mounted backwards.... do I have to think of everything :)

Offline streakeagle

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2006, 02:04:22 PM »
No debating that the F-22 is a great plane, I just don't buy into its cost-effectiveness. No matter how high a quality it may be, there is a certain minimum number of air superiority aircraft the USAF needs to cover all its bases. There were never enough Eagles. Now they will be replaced by even fewer Raptors.

The Raptor will have a hard time beating the Eagle's kill ratio (100+ kills to no Air-to-Air losses = infinity ;)).

Based on my experience with submarine exercises, I would take the results of any exercise with a grain of salt. Exercises usually have a desired outcome and are tailored to get that outcome one way or another. It just wouldn't do to show that a handful of subsonic bombers flying on the deck could get past a Raptor while a handful of conventional fighters escorting them could potentially ambush and kill the Raptor. It makes a much better show to fly high in clear blue skies and show how well the radar and missiles work when the targets are co-operating ;) Early tests showed that F-4s would score about 50% with their Sparrows and render dogfighting a thing of the past just prior to Vietnam. It took over 20 years for the technology to mature enough for the real world results to catch up to the exercises.

I was on AGSS-555 USS Dolphin helping to test Mk50 torpedoes that were supposed to be able to hit diesel submarines running silent in shallow water. In our tests, the Mk50 found us and hit us (passing about 50 feet above our sail) about 1 out of 3 shots... not bad considering the conditions. The exercise required us to do the by-the-book response: put the torpedo on our stern quarter and run. However, one of the torpedo engineers riding us asked what I would really do as a sonar supervisor if I was faced with a torpedo coming at me. I told him that I would give it my beam to kill the doppler shift and either skim the sea bottom at a low speed or if the weather was stormy, stay just beneath the waves to mask my passive and active signature with surface and/or bottom clutter. He said there was no way he could modify the search and track programs to handle that. The tests proved that the torpedo was more successful than any weapon before it, but if we were permitted to take the correct evasive action, the torpedo would never have detected us much less hit us. The test also neglected one very important consideration: if a diesel submarine was running on the battery in these conditions, how would they ever find it to drop a torpedo in the first place ;) On the range, they got the equivalent of a data link giving our exact position so that they could drop the torpedo on a line to guarantee it would intercept us and have a chance to detect us.

I can only imagine the constraints placed on the exercise  that leaves the Eagles who have never been shot down in combat getting stomped by the F-22. To fire AIM-120's, something has to have a good track on the Eagle and the Eagle should be able to detect and spoof whatever is trying to track it. Submarines have had special stealthy active pulses that were classified, but the acoustic intercept equipment carried on every US submarine could reliably detect them. The US military would be foolish if they didn't expect the enemy to use similar radar technology to the F-22 and provide our ESM/ECM systems with the capability to defeat it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 02:10:28 PM by streakeagle »
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Offline eskimo2

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2006, 02:37:09 PM »
eagl,

Suppose an F-15 does win one:  How would that shake down?  Could the raptor miss with one missile and the F-15 kill it with guns visually?

Offline bozon

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« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2006, 04:05:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by indy007
2 out of 3 directions means instant death for anybody in your flight, and those that pick the right way still have to deal with multiple high Pk missles. If you turn on your jammer, the missles go HOJ, and you die. Jammers are to prevent them from being able to bug you at range. Once inside of 20 miles it becomes a liability against both Eastern & Western missles with HOJ capability. Only stealth & speed can defeat those.


The problem is that you give way too much credit to guided missiles. Yes, they are better than ever but so are the counter measures. EW is not something you hear about because it is very much a technological secret and a "suprise" each coutry saves for its opponents. I can assure you some of the modern stuff can do funny things to even the best radars... and very funny things if they are tylored to the specific type of radar :)

AIM7s of various models performed miserably in 1982 over Lebanon vs. quite primitive EW (but so were the missiles). Out of the 82 Sirian planes shot down, quite a few were shot with the good old 20mm cannon after missiles missed.

The ballance between modern guidance systems and counter measures is not well tested and even less advertised. BVR missiles do give a big advantage in entering the fight (maybe even downing a few) but they are far FAR from a certain kill.

In addition, real war is not 4 planes having free range over a 100x100 miles area. There could be tens to hundreds of planes in the area, both high and low, poping in and out of radar coverage and lots lots of electro-magnetic interference. In that case, by the time you sort friend from foe, the distance has been closed.

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Offline Dowding

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Six F15's vs one Raptor
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2006, 04:26:22 PM »
When's the first Red Flag exercise involving F-22s and Eurofighter Typhoons? That would be interesting given RAF pilot quality dominance in 'inferior' aircraft demonstrated in the past? :aok
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