Author Topic: Statistics...  (Read 1789 times)

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2000, 04:45:00 PM »
 Mav,
 I have an urge to re-word some of your points but I do not want to seem like I argue with you - our views are close enough.

 Altruism is there already - any successfull happy person with healthy mind will perform altruistic acts and help less fortunate. Most people do that even if there are shortages and hunger, as long as they perceive the society as fair one.
 People lived for millenia before the social security and those were not dark ages - people always helped each other.

 But don't you hate self proclaimed "altruists" who go into politics because they cannot do anything else and do "altruism" on other people backs. They just need a chance for a few social experiments to improve our lives. And better not bother them with historicl examples and math.

 You (not you personally, Mav, the politician) can talk altruism if you are a Ross Perot or Bill Gates who achieved something/everything for yourself and now willing to use your proven problem-solving capabilities to help public. (Of course public would hate to see a proven successfull achiever as a president, especially the one with bad haircut or big ears...)
 Until then, admit that the tax cut will benefit the rich more then the poor because the rich pay more. But since the rich could buy anything they want already, the money that they save on taxes will get back into the economy under their control, not some inept bureaucrat's. Then economy would improve and the society would benefit including the poor. The tax revenue will be greater even with the lower tax rate. The interest rates will be lower due to onflow of capital - opening business easier and buying a hiuse more affordable. That is Bush's position - no altruism whatsoever.
 Or we can force the rich to be altruistic through high taxes. They may do that or they may move their capital to another country and we would not see any of their money. The middle class that cannot have off-shore accounts would have to pick up the tab.

 Heinlen - yes. He probably turned in his grave when "Starship Troopers" was made a movie.
 I've read quite a few of his works and frankly, while his social views permeating his fiction make it much more attractive to me, he does not do much for me as a S.F. writer. Probably if I read him before L.M. Bujold, David Weber and Drake...
 His documentaries, social studies and articles on the society are different matter altogether - great reading.
 Any of his works you would specifically recommend?

miko

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2000, 05:52:00 PM »
   
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
quote:
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 Even if I were a racist and my post were racist, would n't it make more sence to argue or make conclusions from the content then label me?
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 Unfortunately no. I've read through your posts previously.. there doesn't seem to be a point. You don't seem to want to discuss. You present and you defend. That is it.

 I ment if is there something in the numbers that does not add up or can be interpreted differently? If so, what and how?
 Do you know any studies that contradict those published in Economist?

 Where is discussion here? I say a I am not a racist and you say I am.
 You say the numbers should not be separated and I explain why I think the general statistics does not reflect the state in my neighbourhood or in Washington D.C.
 How come that mean I am unwilling to discuss?
 Even with igloo we have a more or less meaningfull discussion here - after his empty first post. He gave an example and I gave a counter-example.
 What did you contribute to the discussion?

 Did not I not reply to every one of your posts with lengthy posts of my own? Pick one of my statements and try to prove it wrong. Come up with other data proving your point.

 Yes, I present my data and defend my point. Isn't that my part of discussion? How come I am not discussing? Should I argue against my point ov view instead of defending it? I always thought any discussion included a proponent and an opponent. I am the proponent by definition.

 You did not see the points in my posts? They are highlighted and marked specifically.
 here it is again:
 If we consider gun-related and general murder rates among the white americans (not for racial, but for territorial reasons), they will not be higher then european countries or Israel (where most people are armed).
 I say that Anti-guy cativists lie with their statistics and show how. I say that statistics for most cities (and that is where we live) is much better then that.
 Is that not a point?

 Another one from abortion thread:

 Our politicians are lying when they claim credit for the drop in crime. Most of the drop can be explained due to the abortion being legalised in 1973. See the numbers there - I took them from Economist magazine and just superimposed teh graphs and did a simple math.

 Which of the numbers are wrong? Which of them should not have been added? What other factors are not mentioned that could have contributed?

miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 10-10-2000).]

Offline CavemanJ

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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2000, 06:34:00 PM »
This is a very interesting thread.  I think miko has made some great posts.

DJV I dinnae get the impression that miko was trying to be racist.  To the best of my knowledge everything he's said is pretty much on the money.  And whether we like to admit it or not, a class system exists in the US, and there are people who would refer to you and I (and everyone here) as lower class =\

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2000, 07:31:00 PM »
Miko2d <S>

I'm not sure how long you have lived in the U.S. culture, but you have hit on a very, very painful, infected wound in our country that just won't heal... and it is tragic.

I think I know what you are talking about. The problem is, the kind of analysis you have done has always been embraced by racists, who believe that it supports their agendas, while it's been very difficult for the average person to accept.

To illustrate, some years ago a couple of scientists set out to do a scientific study of comparative intelligence - between the races. I believe that the study was referred to as the Bell Curve study, or some such. The results, if I recall correctly, showed that tested blacks had generally lower intelligence than other races tested. This study caused quite a furor, and there were allegations of racism. I'm not even sure if conclusions were ever drawn from the data. The topic is really almost too inflammatory to discuss. And that is my point. You hit a nerve.

I believe that most people are natural born racists, including countless numbers of people who don't consider themselves to be racist, but are. I include all human beings in this statement, because I believe that racism has to do with how humans think and learn. It takes a really enlightened individual to try to rise above this natural tendancy to paint individuals with a broad brush in our social lives.

Like Pavlovian dogs salivating, like successive approximation training that has pidgeons doing 360's, and like the inadvertant learning kids get from whatever micro-culture surrounds them, human beings are racist.

To exacerbate the problem, racism is often usefull, and a very practical way of doing business.

Example: Racial Profiling.

If the educated experience of the police department (your statistics) tell them that a purple race is doing certain crimes in a certain place, they will organize the data in the way that the human brain is so exceptionally good at doing.

The police may not have a written policy to pay special attention to the purple people, but you can bet that every officer out there who is trying to do his/her job, including the black officers, is going to be paying more attention to purple people. And it works.

(Unfortunatly, inevitably, not all purple people attended to in that way are guilty of a crime.)

To me, that is the cost of being a human being on this blue ball we all live on.

I view capital punishment the same way. Will there be mistakes? Inevitably. We should never stop improving ways to keep mistakes from happening, but life is a chance for all of us and we need to act for the larger good.

I don't want to wander any further off topic. I'm not sure how the incidence of violence with guns amoung U.S. whites in general would compare to other places, but I wouldn't be too fast to draw a conclusion.

Violence is a trait of American culture that seems to be ingrained, and I would think that it might be higher than comparable samples elsewhere.

I'm not sure if inner city/black areas have more incidence of violence with guns, but I don't think it would be surprizing if it were true. Those areas have more of every kind of problem.

It's a mess.  


"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Igloo

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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2000, 07:34:00 PM »
What a joke.

That to have freedom, you must have weapons.  That's a bunch of redneck roadkill.

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C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York

"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]

Offline Udie

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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2000, 08:51:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Igloo:
What a joke.

That to have freedom, you must have weapons.  That's a bunch of redneck roadkill.



 Your starting to sound like a bigot to me, you have a closed mind......


Udie


Offline Toad

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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2000, 09:28:00 PM »
Miko,

I am a bit in awe of what you have achieved. My paternal great-grandfather was a very successful immigrant. My maternal grandfather faired better than he did in his native land and his sons were very, very successful.

Your story is not all that different from theirs. What this says to me is that the America that offered my "immigrant" family a chance to succeed still exists. It is reassuring after all the negative things one hears. Thanks!

You don't sound racist to me, either.

Here's one for you:

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal." [Peter Brimelow, National Review (2/1/93)]  

Not that DJV is a liberal!  


Udie,

Ig isn't a bigot. He just isn't very skilled in debate. Research and preparaton are apparently difficult for him, so he relies solely on his own opinion and asks all to accept that as the ONE TRUE POSITION.

Generally, I think you all will note that I refrain from personal "ad hominem" attacks. Please do not take this as an "ad hominem". It is simply my appraisal of his debating style.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2000, 10:07:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Igloo:
What a joke.

That to have freedom, you must have weapons.  That's a bunch of redneck roadkill.


To deny others their freedoms only because you fear it, dislike it is a sign of a tyrant. To punish the many for the sins / trangressions of the few is injustice. To debase others for not thinking like you is bigotry.

Mav

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Offline Udie

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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2000, 11:54:00 PM »
Sorry Toad I cannot accept that now, I've closed my mind    You can try again tomarow at 8 am when we open back up for business  

Udie

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2000, 03:39:00 AM »
<Takes a look at some stats>
<Decides to remove segments that make them bad>
<Re-introduces stats and make new claims>

Doesn't work like that in the real world.

But, you do illustrate one thing; income inequality in the US is a major problem. Well, some don't care, but income inequality and crime rate are closely linked.

Here, everyone is taxed so heavily it is impossible to get rich, so low income inequality  .

And, miko, I must say that if you believe the US internally is more different overall than European countries; I must only point you to our history of wars to show that there are some very major issues. We're better at cooperation now, but the difference between the mentality of a Scandinavian and someone from Greece or Italy are quite large - and that's talking behavior in society only.

The US is diverse, for sure - after all it's built on immigrants and slaves.

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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2000, 10:00:00 AM »
Miko, any armed Caucasian will be probably dead in a few seconds after militia-man will discover the gun.

Sometimes gun is much more dangerous for it's owner.

And he doesn't expect "pogrom" (please notice that you use this word as English, it's very rare in modern Russian) - he is a respected professional, just like you, but he suffers from paranoid attitude to Caucasians in the streets.

BTW, my local militia officer ("uchastkoviy") is a Chechen  

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Igloo

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« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2000, 10:55:00 AM »
Strongly disagreeing about something is not being a bigot.

Actually, I am a good debater when it comes to things that are really worth debating over.  Here, everyone has their own hard set opinions and it really does not matter what information you bring forth, their opinions still remain. They have that right.

Believe me, I am far from closed minded.  

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Offline Naso

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« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2000, 11:29:00 AM »
Well, another great thread !!!  

WTG mates, <S!>

I have to add somethink to Santa's post.

Is not necessary to point at the differences between Scandinavian and Italians (or Spain), and for sure there is a huge difference (just think about different languages).

You can just look at differences in behaviours between different class in a city like mine (Naples), comparable to what miko point at (without different race, only education).

I assure you, in a distance of tenth of meters you can observe two different populations and cultures (i have to admit, here is particularly prononced, it's amazing, indeed), call me if you come here and i will show you places where even the army is scared to enter.

Not talking about police behaviour, here they are corrupted, violent and biased (not all of them, but a BIG percentage).

So the problem you pointed maybe is not related with gun owning, or drug free (and i will agree with the latter), but the big problem in both country maybe is deeper...

My idea??

Education, culture, knowledge call it as you want, but this is the key to be really a men, not a gun or the money.

Fix the education system, and you will have a real, huge improvement of the entire society.

But of coure nor the politicians, nor the big companyes want this, people in an ignorant state is easier to control or to use.

Offline Udie

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« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2000, 12:51:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Igloo:
What a joke.

That's a bunch of redneck roadkill.



 Well sorry, but to me it looks like you ideals don't hold enough water and you have to resort to a statement like above to try and prove your point.  In doing so you take away from the debate and belittle your own words, at least to me.

 I have a question for you igloo,  being that your from Canada, have you ever even seen a real red neck?  Ever been to ones house to eat dinner with his family? You know how his neck got red?  


Udie


Offline Udie

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« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2000, 01:16:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Naso:
Well, another great thread !!!  

WTG mates, <S!>

I have to add somethink to Santa's post.

Is not necessary to point at the differences between Scandinavian and Italians (or Spain), and for sure there is a huge difference (just think about different languages).

You can just look at differences in behaviours between different class in a city like mine (Naples), comparable to what miko point at (without different race, only education).

I assure you, in a distance of tenth of meters you can observe two different populations and cultures (i have to admit, here is particularly prononced, it's amazing, indeed), call me if you come here and i will show you places where even the army is scared to enter.

Not talking about police behaviour, here they are corrupted, violent and biased (not all of them, but a BIG percentage).

So the problem you pointed maybe is not related with gun owning, or drug free (and i will agree with the latter), but the big problem in both country maybe is deeper...

My idea??

Education, culture, knowledge call it as you want, but this is the key to be really a men, not a gun or the money.

Fix the education system, and you will have a real, huge improvement of the entire society.

But of coure nor the politicians, nor the big companyes want this, people in an ignorant state is easier to control or to use.


 DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!

 We have a winner!!!!   WTG Naso! I think you nailed it right on the head.  If a man is educated, realy educated, he knows how to think. If he know's how to think he know's how to make sound judgments. Most of all he is more likely to know when somebody is trying to fool him.  The Democrat party here in the USA has strived on this for decades now and it's how they keep their power.  I guess people are to stupid to see that the problems that the dem's say they will fix this time around keep getting worse.  When they should know that every action they take will either help them get out of problems or cause more problems, not the government. The big buisinesses I think want people to make money so that they will spend that money, the more the better at least the business men I know.


 Udie