Number of Shootings in US Down 40%

[funked]

 http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov./bjs/abstract/fidc9397.htm

These results despite 20 Million new privately owned guns in the US during that period?

Check this one out too: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov./bjs/abstract/cjusew96.htm

The UK has draconian gun control policies, yet crime trends are worse than in the US?

[leonid]

I took a look at those links, then did some looking at the Brit site for gov't. docs, in particular, "Recorded Crimes and Offenses involving Firearms, Scotland, 1999."  Here's what I found:

From the Scotland Report

• 1999 figure is up by 5% from 1998, but 47% lower than peak 1992 figure.  Incidently, the 1999 figure was 1,033.
• Firearms were used in 5% of homicides, 3% of attempted murders, and in less than 3% of robberies.
• 59% of firearms used were air weapons.

It's possible that England may have a higher percentage of firearms usage in crimes, but it's probably not much more than Scotland's 5%.  Compare that to the USA's 21%.  In fact, the number of crimes where firearms were used in England was 3,143 last year (down from 3,325 of 1998).  Comparing this number with Scotland's 1,033, and taking England's larger population into consideration, England's percentage can't be much higher than 5% too.  And I don't know if England also defines air weapons as firearms.

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 10-11-2000).]

[funked]

I just thought it was interesting how quiet the anti-gun mainstream media has been about these facts...

[Ripsnort]

I've found it interesting for a number of years Funked,(the fact that  the Media does not report these findings and others) and they tell me I'm paranoid when the media only reports facts that pertain to their political agenda...

[Dowding]

Air weapons are not classed as firearms in UK for registration purposes - just need to be 17 years old. Crime involving airguns is considered to be armed crime, however.

Populations stats:

England - 48 million
Scotland - 5 million
Wales - 3 million

I don't see why the Scotland stats you give should be that far from England's. Not that much different culturally.

I've heard of the report you quote - it does say though that "...police
statistics show murder and rape rates higher in the United States than in England and Wales...".

Also, "Firearms were involved in crime far more often in the United States than in England and Wales:
     --homicides, 68 percent in the United States and 7 percent in England and Wales.
     --robberies, 41 percent in the United States and 5 percent in England and Wales."
     

 

The UK has draconian gun control policies, yet crime trends are worse than in the US?

A bit vague and misleading - according to that one report some crime rates in England and Wales are higher than the US. But the most serious, i.e. rape and murder are not.


[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 10-11-2000).]

[Toad]

I saw that article Funked.

It's all propaganda from the vast right wing conspiracy. Ignore it.

How could crime rates go down without registration?

You didn't really fall for that one did you?  

[leonid]

 

How could crime rates go down without registration?
- Toad

From  http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov./bjs/cvict_c.htm :

Weapon use

In one-quarter of the incidents of violent crime, offenders used or threatened to use a weapon. NCVS defines assaults involving weapons as aggravated; thus almost all aggravated assaults (95%) involved a weapon. (Assaults without weapons are classified as aggravated if the victim suffers a serious injury.)

Offenders had or used a weapon in slightly less than half of all robberies, compared with 5% of all rapes/sexual assaults in 1999.


Homicides are most often committed with guns, especially handguns. In 1998, 52% of homicides were committed with handguns, 13% with other guns, 13% with knives, 5% with blunt objects, and 17% with other weapons.
In each of 12 cities surveyed in 1998, victims said that less than half of the violent crimes involved a weapon.

_____________________________ _______

They may have gone down percentage-wise, but how high was it before these figures???  Percentages like these are easily ten times higher than most other industrialized nations.

[Toad]

Leonid, no offense but after wading through an ocean of opinion from Igloo...

Could you provide any documentation that these rates are "easily ten times higher than most other industrialized nations"? A link perhaps? They might be...I'd just like to see it.

Also, since any request for explanation, data or factual evidence leaves Igloo indisposed, could you perhaps make the argument that firearm registration will lower violent crime rates faster and/or more inexpensively than something like Project Exile, where we incarcerate people that use firearms in violent crime?

I'd like to see the reasoning behind "firearms registration saves lives". Simply because I suspect that only the law-abiding folks will register and the criminals that actually commit violent crime will take a pass on registration.

So could you clear this up for me? Igloo is indisposed, I guess.

I think the main thing to note is that violent crime rates ARE falling. Not as fast as any of us would like...but it's happening....and without restricting the folks who DON'T commit the crimes.

[spora]

 

Originally posted by Toad:

I'd like to see the reasoning behind "firearms registration saves lives". Simply because I suspect that only the law-abiding folks will register and the criminals that actually commit violent crime will take a pass on registration.

I see no reason why registering weapons would save lives, unless registration is supported with other measures.

- restrict the number of available weapons
- restrict the lethality of weapons
- control the availability of weapons to risk groups
- try to change attitudes (just saw a pretty interesting 'Simpsons' episode about Homer trying to 'protect his family')

On the other hand, the number of weapons available in USA is enormous, so illegal weapons are easy to aquire.  Well, it's easy to buy legal firearms.  So, any drastic measures to ban firearms will create a new black market  - and so on, and so on.

On the other hand, Finland has the largest number of firearms per capita in Europe.  We do not have the problems USA has.  Finland also has about the highest violent crime rate in Europe.  Most of those killings are by stabbings, beatings or by blunt objects (firearms are becoming more 'popular', though).  

The Finnish police have always been armed but firearms are seldom used.

Must be a cultural difference...  I do not know _anyone_ here who has a gun to protect him/herself.

[texter]

- try to change attitudes (just saw a pretty interesting 'Simpsons' episode about Homer trying to 'protect his family')

hoo hoo hoo!!

hee hee hee!

Nah, one gun thread a month is my limit.

TheTexter

[leonid]

<sigh>, I'm too tired of this ... stuff ...  If you guys want your guns, keep em.  If you want to kill people that kill people, kill them.  If you want to turn the world into a better, safer America, carry on.  It appears that recent events in Yemen may open a window of opportunity.

There is no room here in these threads for considerate discussion, and I'm just plain tired of the rhetoric, the insults, the innuendos, etc.  The only thing that keeps me going here is knowing that there is a non-conservative player base here, otherwise I think i'd just fold up and wait for Oleg's game, Sturmovik.  No disrespect to HTC, because I have a ton of loyalty for them and their product.  But the continuous flaunting of conservative US values here is discouraging to me.  As a liberal, I never intended to voice my views here, because I thought it was inappropriate as this is a flight sim community, not a political one.  It was my hope that at Aces High there would be a sense of commonality, but I'm not feeling it much these days.  Maybe I just need to meet you all over a beer where I can see your faces, and expressions, and hear the tone of your voices.  But right now, I'm feeling pretty discouraged about even remaining in Aces High.

One thing that I really regret is that I have been downright mean to some of you.  I'm sorry, but my philosophical and political values are closely intertwined, and close to my heart, and this has resulted in my venting at times.  Still, it is a poor excuse, and for that I can only apologize.

Look, this isn't a 'poor me' post, I just thought I'd let you know where I'm coming from at the moment.  This is certainly something I'd do if I were physically among a group of people I respected.

So, Toad, I have no links, no evidence.  I'm just tired.  Besides, your mind is made up, as is mine.

Take care, Toad.  And I really do mean it.


[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 10-13-2000).]

[F4UDOA]

Any statistics in there about high school shootings? They have gone up sharply.

Gun Violence is down in NY. New Jersey and Phila. because the leaders of these cities have banded together to eliminate assault weapons and high capacity hand guns (Two Rebublican Governers included) as well as building a para-military police force. Also the best economy in the past 30 years helps. All of these things has reduced crime significantly in these enormous population centers not just gun crime. The Guns companies have also been sued by the leaders of all of these cities, any of that in your report?

And all of this under a Democratic president.
Gee, what a shock.

Signed
The Voice of reason

[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 10-13-2000).]

[Naso]

Hey!! hey!!
Leonid, my friend, are you surrendering??  

We are in the O'Club now, talking and yelling one on the other like mads, but this cannot be mixed with the common passion we have and the great cavalry we older AH addicts show in arena, i mean, i will always dive to try to save the arse of F4UDOA (BTW wise words in your post above, <S!>  ), even knowing he have the "hog disease"  .
And the same i will do for mr. "my links are bigger than yours" ( +  ), even wondering if he have somewhere between the links expressed an original idea (ouch, may be this is a little bit strong   ).

We are still having great discussions on this board, about different arguments than the next plane or when we have to start the "2 weeks" countdown.

Of course we cannot agree on many thinks, nor convince others nor force others with our ideas, but communication is the key word, we can try to share our respective ideas and (avoiding to be mind closed), we can raise our complessive knowledge.

I hope to be in condition next year to come in the 2nd AH con, where i can meet all of you and, after a good and strong discussion in front of many many beers, laff about our "close and personal" behaviours in this board.

And finally ask Yankee to married me    

 

[Toad]

Leonid,

Do what you feel is right, as all of us do.

I don’t think there is that much of a philosophical difference as far as the overall “big picture” is concerned. I believe all of us want to see a more peaceful, crime free nation/world where children get adequate nutrition and health care and so on.

There are obviously MAJOR differences in opinions on which paths we should take to achieve these ends.
 
I don’t take my politics into the AH arena; I shoot down whoever I can line up, Conservative or Liberal.  

I try very hard to keep my non-flight sim “off topic” comments in the O-Club; a venue specifically designated for such OT friendly bickering.

As far as considerate discussion, I haven’t seen any “ad hominem” attacks. While the discussions can get a little rowdy, I’ve certainly never been offended, depressed or angered by what I’ve read here. Instead, I find a freewheeling exchange of ideas entertaining, invigorating and interesting.

If you are distressed by these discussions, why do you even read the O-Club topics? Why torture yourself with the idea that not everyone agrees with your personal politics and beliefs? If it is stressful, don’t do it!

All that being said, I’ll just point out that once again no one on your side of the fence seems to be able to present a cogent explanation of how registration will reduce violent crime. There appears to be a total lack of hard data. Rather than defend a hypothesis, once again the proponent simply withdraws from the discussion.

If you leave, good luck to you. Perhaps you will find a liberal player base in some war game but I fear that may be a mutually exclusive situation.

[Toad]

F4U,

Thanks; I always look forward to your inadvertent support of the conservative position!

“Gun Violence is down in NY. New Jersey and Phila. because the leaders of these cities have banded together to eliminate assault weapons and high capacity hand guns.”


With just a bit of research, I think you will find that gun violence is down EVERYWHERE in the US. Even in cities that did NOT take these steps. Therefore, is it not plausible, even probable that these steps had nothing to do with lower rates in these particular cities?

Therefore, define your timeline and compare the statistics of these cities with those of other cities that DID NOT pass these laws.

Then, factor in Philadelphia’s Project Ceasefire, which does not affect guns in any way, shape or form. It simply jails criminals that use guns, for a long time with no parole. Compare Philly’s stats to NYC  and DC where they don’t have Project Ceasefire or Exile and instead use more restrictive laws.

Then you might have something to talk about. I await the results of your research.

“Also the best economy in the past 30 years helps. All of these things has reduced crime significantly in these enormous population centers not just gun crime.”

I absolutely agree! Once again you seem to support my contention that it is NOT the inanimate guns that are the problem. I’ve said before “a hungry man will steal to feed his family.” I take your statement as agreement that the MAJOR factors in crime have nothing to do with guns. Rather the question is one of meeting the basic survival needs of our population. (Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs) Once you do that, the need for criminal activity to meet “survival needs” drops, thus a drop in violent crime. Now...shall we WASTE money on a pointless program like registration or attack the real causes of crime?


“ The Guns companies have also been sued by the leaders of all of these cities, any of that in your report?”

You believe that lawsuits against gun manufacturers have had a major effect on violent crime?

Well, first I’d look at total gun production/importation/sales in the US over the last 5 years. I’d be surprised if the numbers have gone down. I expect they have gone up.

Further, suits against gun manufacturers certainly would have had no effect on guns already in circulation, a number Leonid put at around 190 million.

Lastly, I’m sure the end-user, the violent criminal, doesn’t care one whit whether or not a manufacturer is sued as a result of his action.

OK, given that gun production/importation/sales haven’t gone down, that there are 192 million guns in private hands and that the criminals don’t give a hoot about a manufacturer’s liability....

Please explain to me how the lawsuits have lowered violent crime?

...and I’m still eager to hear just ONE proponent of gun registration explain in a cogent manner how this is going to lower the violent crime rate. I think there are two givens that must be acknowledged in this argument:

1. The law-abiding gun owners are NOT the problem.

2. The criminals with guns are highly unlikely to participate in registration.

With these two obvious “givens” I’m baffled as to how registration is going to help lower the violent crime rate.

Can any of you guys make this case in a cogent fashion with some support other than personal opinion?